T Nation

PCT for 2 On - 4 Off

If one did a 2 on - 4 off TA only cycle, would using Clomid for PCT be at all helpful? I believe the Clomid is used to keep estrogen levels down and stimulate natural/endogenous T production, but with TA estrogen will already be down due to the shutdown of endogenous T production. Correct?

I am thinking Clomid would be good throughout the cycle anyway due to positive impact on cholesterol levels. But it seems if one weren’t going to use it for that purpose, it wouldn’t even be necessary for a 2 on - 4 off with TA only.

Any thoughts on this? Any suggestions for PCT for a 2 on - 4 off TA only cycle (actually it would be multiple cycles of 2 on - 4 off)?

Cheers!

I was hoping that someone who knows what they are talking about would answer, but it seems not. I have been studying Roberts articles on the shorty cycles. He doesnt report a Tren only cycle I dont think, but he does mention somewhere in an article on anti-estrogens or similar that they are not needed when using Tren. This I dont understand.

I know Tren doesnt aromatize but it is an AR agonist and therefore suppresses HPTA. Now I thought the effect of the competitive inhibitors like clomid or nolva was to bind to the estrogen receptors without activating them, tricking the HPTA into sensing low estrogen.

Since estrogen levels are one of the primary indicators used by the Hyp. and pituitary to control Test levels the response is to increase release of LHRH->LH->Test.

Where am i wrong here?

[quote]MichaelOH wrote:
I was hoping that someone who knows what they are talking about would answer, but it seems not.[/quote]

Yeah, me too… Obviously :slight_smile:

I think Bill tends to come at things from a bodybuilding perspective, primarily, and a Tren only cycle would be far less than optimal for that purpose. Jim’s 2 on - 4 off was with Tren and Diana, which makes a lot of sense from a BB/mass perspective.

I was thinking about just going to Tren because I’m more concerned with strength and size is not a priority (I’m sure it will come along with the cycle, but it’s not a goal).

That’s pretty much my understanding as well. So since there is no aromatization issue in cycle, they wouldn’t be necessary with Tren only, and in the short cycle theory, as I understand it, the HPTA is not supposed to be suppressed to any significant degree. That is why I was thinking they might not even be used as PCT.

[quote]Since estrogen levels are one of the primary indicators used by the Hyp. and pituitary to control Test levels the response is to increase release of LHRH->LH->Test.

Where am i wrong here?[/quote]

I think that is correct, although I don’t have any resources with me to double check the progression from LHRH->LH->Test as you wrote it.

Where I’m not sure of myself is whether the shut down of endogenous test in a Tren only 2 week cycle would also lower estrogen levels such that using the clen or nolva would be unnecessary.

Any of y’all experts have any input on this issue?

I have also read Roberts say that an AAS which does not aromatize will estrogen because it shuts down endogenous Test. This means that the Test which is normally aromatizing is shut down, thus less estrogen than normal. I’ll try to do some more looking on PCT on the non-aromatizing synthetics.

Also if you are going to do a shorty cycle you know you need a very short acting AAS, like Tren Acetate for example?

I find it odd that more men aren’t interested in cycling in a safer way.

Tren shuts you down fast. 2 weeks is more than enough to do it. Clomid is recommanded afterwards, though I dont know why either since there is no aromatisation.

Maybe it’s because your own test levels are low after the 2 week period - and by consequence the E to T ratio is affected. Maybe it’s because it helps kickstart the boys.

Nothing is as powerful as Tren so that’s why it is suggested for 2 weekers, as you will gain tons of hard mass fast, but it will shut you down hard as well. IMO with other fast acting drugs like TestProp, orals etc you can do 2 weeks on, 4 off. With tren, I’d extend the off to 5-6 weeks.

I’m interested to know as well the need/style of PCT for those 2 week cycles.

From one of Bill Robert’s articles:

"Program

Throughout the first five weeks: 50 mg/day Clo (two capsules), except Day 1 is 300 mg in six divided doses.

In first two weeks, 200 g/day protein more than usual, but hold fat and carbs moderate enough to avoid significant if any fat gain. In the following four weeks, diet the first three, and diet or use maintenance calories for the fourth, in all cases keeping protein at least 180 g/day.

Day 1: 100 mg (200 IU) TA in morning. 10 mg D five times per day in divided doses, which might include middle of the night if I awake briefly enough to have a pre-made Met-Rx. Cyt: 125 mg (half tab) on arising and 62.5 mg six and then twelve hours later.

Days 3-11: 50 mg (100 IU) TA/day, 250 mg Cyt as above, and 50 mg Diana as above.

Days 12-14: No TA, but otherwise same as days 3-11.

Weeks 3 and 4: Diana 10 mg on arising, and 10 mg four hours later. Cyt ? tab on arising, and oxandr 20 mg on arising.

Week 5: same, but on basis of blood test, Cyt may be dropped if estradiol levels were below normal.

Week 6: Clean, unless T was not above normal in blood test at end of week 4, in which case Clo use will be continued in week 6."

So PCT amounts to the use of Clomid and Cytadren throughout, or nearly, the entire 6 weeks. But notice this wasnt a Tren only cycle as Dianabol and later oxandrolone were used, although he says oxandrolone does not aromatize.

Comments?

I wish I had posted this last month while Bill was posting. It sure would have been nice to get his take on this. Oh well…

I have flirted with the idea of doing a series of 2/4 cycles for a while, but I have always noticed that I don’t start making really good gains until the 3rd week or so, even when using things like Tren Ace. I find that at 3 weeks it all starts coming together and stays that way until week 8 or so then begins to decline. I’m not sure the scientific basis for it but it seems it takes my body some time to get in gear to grow. I’ve noticed this same phenomenon with many others.

If I was going to do it I would combine Tren Ace (100mg ED)with Test Prop (100mg ED)and some proviron (25-50mg ED). IMO a Tren/Test combo is THE best cycle ever for just about anything. If you can’t grow on that your screwing something up big time. Clomid is ok, but it tends to put you on an emotional roller coaster. I normally use adex for a PCT, but I tend to respond very well to it.

Here is a good thread on Bill’s 2/4 cycles with some links to more articles:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1544513

Good thread on short cycles in general (6 weeks):
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1318890

If you try it keep a log and let us know how it worked out.

[quote]gettinbigger wrote:
I have flirted with the idea of doing a series of 2/4 cycles for a while, but I have always noticed that I don’t start making really good gains until the 3rd week or so, even when using things like Tren Ace. I find that at 3 weeks it all starts coming together and stays that way until week 8 or so then begins to decline. I’m not sure the scientific basis for it but it seems it takes my body some time to get in gear to grow. I’ve noticed this same phenomenon with many others.

If I was going to do it I would combine Tren Ace (100mg ED)with Test Prop (100mg ED)and some proviron (25-50mg ED). IMO a Tren/Test combo is THE best cycle ever for just about anything. If you can’t grow on that your screwing something up big time. Clomid is ok, but it tends to put you on an emotional roller coaster. I normally use adex for a PCT, but I tend to respond very well to it.

Here is a good thread on Bill’s 2/4 cycles with some links to more articles:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1544513

Good thread on short cycles in general (6 weeks):
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1318890

If you try it keep a log and let us know how it worked out.[/quote]

you probably don’t make gains till the third week cause of the ester on the steroid you’re using.

As for the original question, tren is tough on prolactin levels, so go with some cabergoline say 500 mg eod and 50 mg clomid ed.

[quote]gettinbigger wrote:
Here is a good thread on Bill’s 2/4 cycles with some links to more articles:
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1544513

Good thread on short cycles in general (6 weeks):
http://www.T-Nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1318890

If you try it keep a log and let us know how it worked out.[/quote]

Thanks for the pointers to those threads.

[quote]cougarenegade wrote:
As for the original question, tren is tough on prolactin levels, so go with some cabergoline say 500 mg eod and 50 mg clomid ed.

[/quote]

Thanks. I’ll have to keep researching this and see what I can figure out.

Aren’t they the same steroids that other people use successfully in two week cycles though? Aren’t they ones Roberts suggests?

There are a myriad of substances good for short cycles. Anything really with a short ester (or none at all). Also, the goal is to gain muscle quick, not bloat, so I’d avoid a50’s and d-bol.

If you’re looking to do 2 drugs, I’d go with boldenone acetate with test phenylpropionate eod, or maybe npp with test prop or phenylprop, winny,tren acetate.

All of these are great, I’d say definitely include test, especially if you’re going with things like winny, tren, and deca to keep somewhat of a balance between the anabolic and androgenic properties.

Here is a very interesting Q&A on Clomid and pct in general. It looks like Clomid would still be worthwhile even on a 2 week cycle of TA only.

www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/scally/ask-michael-scally.htm

[quote]sdwa wrote:
Here is a very interesting Q&A on Clomid and pct in general. It looks like Clomid would still be worthwhile even on a 2 week cycle of TA only.

www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/scally/ask-michael-scally.htm[/quote]

That was a very interesting article, and the first time I’ve seen justification for the concurrent use of both clomid and nolva during the recovery period.

I do wonder about the date that article was published.

There were some interesting ideas, but there were also some very confusing elements: the syntax was occassionally so sloppy I wasn’t sure what the sentence meant. There were paragraphs that seemed to be a collection of unrelated, random sentences. I cant be the only one that noticed.

Also the theory he proposes for using HCG AFTER the cycle when one is trying to regain endogenous LH just did not make sense to me; though perhaps it is the case that a brief exposure to HCG sensitizes the testicles and makes them more receptive to LHRH (similar to B Roberts claim that brief exposure to AAS sensitizes the pituitary).

The same with the notion that Clomid acts as an Estrogen AGONIST at the pituitary and is sensitizing the pituitary to LHRH. Man that really confused me. I thought it acts as an E atagonist on the HPTA (though an agonist in other places). Furthermore if Clomid DOES act as an E agonist at the pituitary how is that a good thing?

Anybody?