T Nation

PCT Didn't Work. Help.

I am 44, years old and weight 150 lbs. This was my first cycle.

I did 12 weeks of Trenbolone Acetate, Testosterone and Arimidex (orally).

I did shots every other day, where on Monday I would do 1 ML of tren and then on Wednesday I would do 1 ML of tren and 1 ml of testosterone and keep alternating, so in two weeks I would do 7 ml of tren and 3.5 ml of testosterone. I also did an anti estrogen orally (Arimidex) as a liquid while doing the cycle to prevent any unwanted gyno and estrogen levels down.

I finsihed my cycle the first week of December and immediately (two days) started taking my PCT (orally), which included Clomid and Novaldex. I did 1 ML of Clomid and 1/2 ML of Novaldex every day for 3 weeks. It’s been about two weeks since I finshed the PCT and my balls are starting to shrink, since I stopped the PCT. It’s very hard for me to keep an erection and cum. My blood work a week ago showed the following:

Testosterone 38 L should be 241-827 ng/dl
Estradiol 26 should be < 0r = 39 pg/ml

My trainer wanted me to go on HCG and I told him based on what I read on the forum, I did not want to risk permanent damage to the sensitivity to my testes and I felt because of the length of the cycle and the strength of the tren, that I just needed to do a longer 3 week PCT. He got upset with me and now refuses to get my clomid and novaldex. He says that HCG is standard for PCT, but this comes from someone who doesn’t even get on the internet, not saying everything on the internet is true, but…

Questions:

  1. Should I try Clomid and Novaldex again? Dosage amount? Time duration? How can I acquire? It seems everything online is a scam from India or Canada. If you can’t answer this, then I understand. Are the pills better then taking orally in liquid form? I was combining the two drugs in the same syringe, is that cool?

  2. Will my body eventually start producing testosterone, if I do nothing at all? If so how long? Am I better off doing option #1?

  3. I can’t seem to find an Endocronologist that will prescribe what I need. How can I find one who believes in SERM?

Thanks a lot and I have learned a very valuable lesson, but I do NOT want to be on testosterone shots for the rest of my life when I know I am capable of producing test on my own. I had a high sex drive prior to doing roids and that increased 3x during my cycle. Now, it’s like I don’t have any drive. I am frustrated and getting real depressed.

I would continue SERM as a first option. Taper off it VERY gradually. Look for well-reviewed websites that offer ‘Research Chemicals’ such as peptides. These sites often ofter legit oral SERM products.

Suggestions:

1.) Finishing Tren and Test simultaneously has been known to cause more difficult recovery. Run the test for some period of time after discontinuation of Tren usage.

2.) Did you continue using ADex during your PCT? There is some evidence that AIs interfere with SERMs.

Don’t do HCG yet, but if you can afford it, get some. Should the second SERM PCT fail, then you should have some test or HCG on hand.

Also: If an endocrinologist can look at your T levels and not prescribe you anything, I suggest you take your case to their governing body in your state, because that is fucking horrendous.

[quote]chasek77 wrote:

I finsihed my cycle the first week of December and immediately (two days) started taking my PCT (orally), which included Clomid and Novaldex. I did 1 ML of Clomid and 1/2 ML of Novaldex every day for 3 weeks. It’s been about two weeks since I finshed the PCT and my balls are starting to shrink, since I stopped the PCT. It’s very hard for me to keep an erection and cum. My blood work a week ago showed the following:

[/quote]

Are you using research chems for your PCT? One ML isn’t a dosage, it’s a measure of volume.

It may have been severly underdosed.

Yes, instead of giving us the mL, give us the mg. And yes, HCG is supposed to be used during cycle, and NOT pct (as it is suppressive.)If you need to get more nolva or clomid, type a search into google about “research chemicals.” I hope this helps

Also which testosterone ester were you using? If you were using Cyp/Enth and started PCT 2 days after last shot, 3 weeks later you are just barely clear of the drug.

I would try another SERM PCT. You can buy SERMs online in liquid form, which it sounds like is what your trainer is doing. Google ‘research chemicals’.

Guys,

Thanks for all the love. Let me try to answer all of your questions.

Suggestions:

I stopped the tren and test in the first week of December, so continuing test is impossible, since I no longer have access to black market testosterone.

I did not continue the Armidex during the PCT, but I did have to do some heavy anti-biotics called Sulfamethoxazole-TMP for a staph/streph infection due to a bad shot in my ass. Not sure what the drug inter-action there was if any.

I can get some test shots from my general physician if I have to, but she see’s that as the only way to get better and I don’t want to be on that forever.

I haven’t been to an endo doctor yet, but before paying for a doctor visit and all the blood work again I usually call and ask their assistant if they prescribe SERMS. If they say no, then I don’t bother. It is insane that most doctors think that they should treat your low t levels the same as an older guy who can’t produce t due to his body not being able to versus my issue is a suppression issue due to roids.

I got the pct from the same black market source as the roids. I know it had the dosage amounts on the bottle, but I threw them out, so all I can give you is the ml amounts. I think I was doing 50mg of the clomid and 25MG of the novaldex every day for 21 days. I went through 2 vials of the clomid, but that may not help anyone.

I am going to google “research chemicals” again and see what I can find. Right now I am trying to get some clomid and noveldex via an endo doctor or through my gym. I know a guy who works for the Houston Texans and deals with players and maybe he can help me.

I have huge reservations on HCG. I think I would rather wait for things to kick in naturally, if that ever happens or do a 2nd round of clomid/novaldex. The anti-biotics or the test could have interfered, not sure.

I believe the test I did was enanthate. I hit the elliptical today and I heard squats and diet can help you recover. I got a script for cialis, so hopefully that helps keep the new girlfriend happy, but I am having issues cumming.

Kurt

This was emailed to me from my trainer on dosage amounts for the cycle.
Day 1 today. 100mg trenbolone ace
Day 2 Monday 100mg tren 250mg cypionate
Day 3 Wednesday 100mg tren
Day 4 Friday 100mg tren 250 mg cyp
Day 5 Sunday 100mg tren
Day 6 Tuesday 100mg tren 250mg cyp

so maybe, I did do cypionate of maybe he just sends this to everyone. I was almost positive the bottle said enanthiate.

[quote]chasek77 wrote:

I have huge reservations on HCG. I think I would rather wait for things to kick in naturally, if that ever happens or do a 2nd round of clomid/novaldex. The anti-biotics or the test could have interfered, not sure.
[/quote]

So, you’re injecting UGL test and tren and relying on PCT from a research company but you won’t take HCG because you want to wait for “things to kick in naturally”. Bro, you left natural behind months ago.

If there was ever a time to rely on pharmaceuticals, this is it. And if you think blood work and endo visits are expensive now, wait until you’re on TRT because you’ve shut yourself down permanently.

You got a lot of good advice above, I’d find some real Nolva and run PCT again.

<-------------- Not an MD

12 weeks of tren is a pretty suppressive cycle for a 44 year old system. Just stating the obvious. If you started PCT 2 days after your last shot, then you still had a large amount of test in your system (if it was cyp or enan)…enough to keep you suppressed for most, if not all of the SERM PCT you ran.

I don’t mean to be a dick…but don’t fucking listen to your trainer, or the average guy off the street when getting advice about taking powerful drugs that mess with your hormones. Research for yourself so you can make informed decisions, and weed out the bullshit from the decent suggestions. It’s past the point where that matters for your current state, but from here on, get informed.

At your age, I’d go to an endo and get prescribed help. If you don’t want to go that route, then by all means run an aggressive SERM PCT again. It very well may work to your satisfaction, but again, at your age (no disrespect) it may be tough to recover from that duration of tren. Give it a try. It can’t hurt.

An alternative would be to get some test and run an assistance amount/TRT levels to straighten out your sex drive, mood, etc, and start an HCG protocol with it. Once you have done that, learn the PCT start time for the active half life of the test you have ran, and start another PCT with SERMS at the appropriate time, possibly with some Triptorelin on the first day.

Most, if not all of the stuff you need (except test) can be purchased at research chemical sites if you’re having problems obtaining it elsewhere. The doc is still the best option IMO.

Tell your trainer to eat a dick.

So youre 150 pounds and your trainer had you on 700mg of tren per week and about 750mg of test per week?

Lol. Stop taking advice from him. Permanently.

Listen to the posts here so far.

Your PCT didnt work because there was still a supressive level of testosterone in your bloodstream when you started it. There was no reason to start a SERM the day after your last shot.

What were your hormone levels prior to the cycle?

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
So youre 150 pounds and your trainer had you on 700mg of tren per week and about 750mg of test per week?

[/quote]

It looks to me more like 400/500, but still…jesus

Its amazing to me that OP blindly followed this trainer’s advice without seeking out any other references…doesn’t even know what compounds he was taking for sure, or what dosages…this is truly natural selection at work…hopefully past reproductive age

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:
So youre 150 pounds and your trainer had you on 700mg of tren per week and about 750mg of test per week?

[/quote]

It looks to me more like 400/500, but still…jesus

Its amazing to me that OP blindly followed this trainer’s advice without seeking out any other references…doesn’t even know what compounds he was taking for sure, or what dosages…this is truly natural selection at work…hopefully past reproductive age[/quote]

Youre right, I didnt see the monday wednesday friday stuff. My mistake

What’s UGL test Dr. Pangloss? I got my roids and PCT on the black market. Is that the same as a research company? Sorry, if I do sound like a newbie, but my trainer got everything through a dealer he knew. I never said I wanted things to kick in naturally, but if I can’t find clomid or nolvadex, then I have no choice. I would like to do nolva and clomid again to kickstart the system. I realize after two weeks of roids your body stops producing test naturally. I will never do TRT.

joice20jd - You make some good tough love points and I appreciate it. You guys are the main reason why I did not want to do HCG in a post cycle and that is why my trainer won’t get me my clomid and novaldex. You are so right about my trainer. What kind of guy tells you a staph/step infection is not a big deal and then leaves you high and dry on your PCT gear?

Bonez217 - I ran 700mg of tren every two weeks. I know he said day 1…6, but if you look the days were every other day. Sorry, for the confusion. The test was 375mg per week. I agree the test was probably still in my system, thus the SERM didn’t have a chance. I did not do a baseline test level before the cycle. I should have. I relied on my trainer and that was ignorant.

Vballa35 - Your right, I was an idiot, but whenever I tried to question him he got irritated with me and said he had been doing this himself for x amount of years. I shouldn’t have thrown the vials out, so I could tell you more about how much I did. This was my first and last cycle. I learned a valuable lesson. You guys are very on top of this, so from here on I go with what you say! Forgive my ignorance!

[quote]chasek77 wrote:
What’s UGL test Dr. Pangloss? I got my roids and PCT on the black market. Is that the same as a research company? Sorry, if I do sound like a newbie, but my trainer got everything through a dealer he knew. I never said I wanted things to kick in naturally, but if I can’t find clomid or nolvadex, then I have no choice. I would like to do nolva and clomid again to kickstart the system. I realize after two weeks of roids your body stops producing test naturally. I will never do TRT.

joice20jd - You make some good tough love points and I appreciate it. You guys are the main reason why I did not want to do HCG in a post cycle and that is why my trainer won’t get me my clomid and novaldex. You are so right about my trainer. What kind of guy tells you a staph/step infection is not a big deal and then leaves you high and dry on your PCT gear?

Bonez217 - I ran 700mg of tren every two weeks. I know he said day 1…6, but if you look the days were every other day. Sorry, for the confusion. The test was 375mg per week. I agree the test was probably still in my system, thus the SERM didn’t have a chance. I did not do a baseline test level before the cycle. I should have. I relied on my trainer and that was ignorant.

Vballa35 - Your right, I was an idiot, but whenever I tried to question him he got irritated with me and said he had been doing this himself for x amount of years. I shouldn’t have thrown the vials out, so I could tell you more about how much I did. This was my first and last cycle. I learned a valuable lesson. You guys are very on top of this, so from here on I go with what you say! Forgive my ignorance!

Kurt[/quote]

UGL = underground lab. Ie. as opposed to HG (human grade / pharm). His point was obviously that one is always taking a risk injecting a UG product, and that risk is far greater than that involved in using a SERM from a research chemical company.

Anyway, the guys have all made great points. Most importantly, you do need to get on a SERM asap. Yes, you’ll probably recover eventually without, but it may get uglier before it gets better. There are plenty of decent places to get SERMS.

I am going to keep you guys posted on my progress. The information I got was invaluable. If I can do anything to return the favor somehow let me know.

Kurt: You seem like a good dude and have taken the (well deserved) criticism in stride. I just noticed that you are 44. Now I’m not saying you don’t have long, healthy years ahead of you. But many studies show that testosterone levels drops precipitously when a man reaches his mid 40’s.

Running the extremely suppressive cycle you did could possibly be murder on your HPTA. Now I’m not trying to be a voice of pessimism here–I think you should do everything you can to restore your natural levels as much as you can by reloading your PCT. You say you are 100% against TRT, but it may be a good idea to keep it in the back of your mind if your efforts prove unsuccessful. There is some good information on the TRT forum in this site that you can browse through. It’s not nearly as big of a pain in the ass as you think it might be.

Just a thought, wouldnt he have elevated progesterone levels running tren for that long without using Dostinex or Cabaser. I would get your levels checked and go from there.

VTballa34 - Constructive critique is only good for the soul. I agree that test stops dropping at 35. I can only say that I had a very high sex drive prior to this. I am going to try the PCT and then I would consider doing alternatives if that fails. To me, TRT is always an option, so why not exhaust all other options first.

One idea may be to start up on test thought my doctor with some HCG to get the balls full out again, then try the PCT again? What do you think if PCT fails? I think I didn’t do the PCT long enough and maybe started to early. No doubt Tren is hard on your system and I am not a spring chicken, but if anything, I had too high a sex drive prior to this. Keep you posted. Peace brother!

Kurt

Jscott8220 - Testosterone 38 L should be 241-827 ng/dl
Estradiol 26 should be < 0r = 39 pg/ml

Do I need a more complete panel for LH, etc?

[quote]chasek77 wrote:
Jscott8220 - Testosterone 38 L should be 241-827 ng/dl
Estradiol 26 should be < 0r = 39 pg/ml

Do I need a more complete panel for LH, etc?[/quote]

I was refering to checking your progesterone levels.

The blood work done on January 2nd was a comprehensive metabolic panel. It was done by Quest Diagnostics via my general physician doctor. My liver and kidney’s were fine. The only thing out of whack that was tested was the test levels. My doctor recommended test cream or shots, but the cream was $200 a month with no insurance and I knew that was a putting a band-aid on the issue and I could always come back to it as a last resort.

I did do Arimidex during the cycle to prevent gyno.