T Nation

PCT Clarification?

Hey guys this is not my first post but it is my first thread; I’m looking for some opinions on when exactly to start PCT.

There are a few different issues clouding my judgement including the accuracy of my gear dosage. In addition I had always tapered in the past (due to ignorance) so this is my first run at PCT. First run with an AI as well.

The Testoprim-D I was taking (which btw don’t EVER take Testoprim-D; sides are 10X worse than that of Winny) consisted of amps that were only 70% of a CC; I can’t be sure if that means 70% of the 250mgs as well or if all 250mgs were contained in the amp and it was just 7/10 of a CC dose…

my inclination is the former because the cycle was a bit sub-par (btw, this would be a huge factor in my test level accuracy). Furthermore I had 3 Sustanon 250 redi-jects left over from way back and threw them on at the end of my cycle from which I felt a boost(probably not 100% wise but I wanted to use them up because I’ve decided that from here on out I will stick with single ester tests).

Feel free to crack on the cycle but I wanted to get 10 weeks of deca in so I started it 2 weeks early, figured it would also kick in simultaneously with the prop and I never did get deca dick so no harm no foul.

A little info. about myself: I did my first cycle when I was 21 and sooo not ready; it was 8 weeks of Winny kick started with a month of Dbol - loved it though.

My next cycle came at age 29; your standard deca/test and at 33 I did it (deca/test) again and have done a cycle a year the last 4 years (35-39)current age is 39.

This will be the first year I will do 2 cycles in a calendar year as I am anxious to experiment with Tren/cyp this winter, especially after this terrible experience with Testoprim-D. I won’t go into the gruesome details of the stuff but if you’re even considering it PM me so I can talk you down.

So, here is the cycle I just completed Friday:

Drug: Nandrolone Decanoate (10 weeks)
300mg
Half-life: 9.5 days
Dose Frequency: Every 7 days
Cycle Length: 64 days
Start Day: 1

Drug: Testosterone Enanthate (9 weeks)
200mg
Half-life: 7 days
Dose Frequency: Every 3 days
Cycle Length: 59 days
Start Day: 13

Drug: Testosterone Propionate (9 weeks)
50mg
Half-life: 2 days
Dose Frequency: Every 3 days
Cycle Length: 59 days
Start Day: 13

Drug: Testosterone Propionate (1 week)
30mg
Half-life: 2 days
Dose Frequency: Every 3 days
Cycle Length: 7 days
Start Day: 62

Drug: Test Phenylpropionate (1 week)
60mg
Half-life: 3 days
Dose Frequency: Every 3 days
Cycle Length: 7 days
Start Day: 62

Drug: Testosterone Isocaproate (1 week)
60mg
Half-life: 5 days
Dose Frequency: Every 3 days
Cycle Length: 7 days
Start Day: 62

Drug: Testosterone Decanoate (1 week)
100mg
Half-life: 9.5 days
Dose Frequency: Every 3 days
Cycle Length: 7 days
Start Day: 62

Drug: Adex (8 weeks and counting)
.25mg
Dose Frequency: Every day
Cycle Length: up until PCT
Start Day: 21

Drug: Nolvadex
20mg tabs
Dose Frequency: Every day…but when to start and for how long I have not yet determined what is best.

Initially I was going to start it 2 weeks after my last test dose (day 82) and run it for about 3 to 4 weeks but the PCT calculator on Bulk Muscle has me putting it off until like day 92 which is about 2 weeks later then what I had initially planned (thanks again for that site Roid Enthusiast); sorry if I bored you all to tears with the autobiography…your thoughts would be appreciated fellas.

-Mousse

I would suggest [never done a cycle here] that you use the a-dex all through the cycle AND PCT. End the SERM by tapering off, never a sudden stop. Stay on the a-dex for a week then reduce to 1 - 1.5mg/wk for a month at least.

I can’t see the logic in using 7 different kinds of T.

How are the testes doing? Some need HCG to help them get back in the game and some will use HCG thru the whole cycle to keep them working and LH responsive.

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[quote]KSman wrote:
I would suggest [never done a cycle here] that you use the a-dex all through the cycle AND PCT. End the SERM by tapering off, never a sudden stop.
[/quote]Cool; weeks 1&2 20mg/day, week 3 20mg/EOD and week 4 20mg E3D taper enough? long enough?[quote]

Stay on the a-dex for a week then reduce to 1 - 1.5mg/wk for a month at least.
[/quote]
I’ve already reduced from 1.75mg to 1.4mg week. Based on what you are saying I think I will reduce to 1.2mg next week and 1mg the week after and keep it there until PCT ends.[quote]
I can’t see the logic in using 7 different kinds of T.
[/quote]
me either[quote]

How are the testes doing? Some need HCG to help them get back in the game and some will use HCG thru the whole cycle to keep them working and LH responsive.
[/quote]
I’ve had absolutely no problem. There was a point where I was taking too much Adex bc I was miscalculating the # of drops (ie. got the “swimming pool” effect) but once I reduced it to the appropriate dosage the boys were hanging low again. I can’t say what my actual LH levels are though as I have not had blood work.

I’m not prone to gyno at all; I was interested in PCT more to sustain gains and avoid the whole post-cycle low test depression stage.

I should stress that I was already skeptical of the mg accuracy of the Testoprim-D and just the one week of Sustanon 250 gave me some acne which has me questioning the T-levels ever really got that high. This aspect throws everything for a loop which makes it difficult to determine exactly what steps should be taken.

Taking all this into consideration could you give me an idea of exactly when to incorporate the SERM?

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Well that’s an odd cycle to say the least, lol.
[/quote]
it’s f’d up bra…I know.[quote]

Anyway, if it were me, and with so many different esters of test, plus the deca, I would choose to run a low dose of test for 6 weeks to allow clearance of the other drugs.
[/quote]
I am NOT being sarcastic when I ask “why would I take test while waiting for test to clear?” 4 weeks should be enough for the deca to clear for PCT right? Plus LOL I’d have to incorporate another ester LMAO…all I have is cyp on hand.[quote]

Then I would do what has worked well for many others here, since P22 revived it… Taper off.
[/quote]
Maybe a combination would be wise…I’m aware of the debate and a longer taper along with PCT may be the ultimate answer but I wanted to know the difference before I combined the 2 theories; I want to feel the difference between a taper only and a PCT only cycle before I combine the two.[quote]

No it’s not ‘ignorant’ to think that a slow steady withdrawal from powerful hormones might be better than a sudden stop, IMO.
[/quote]

To clarify I meant that to taper “alone” without PCT was ignorant of me…I wasn’t aware of PCT except for those who took massive amounts of test and grew tits up until joining the nation. Because I have always tapered in the past (without PCT) I was looking forward to the ever-promising world of cycle completion without the depression and angst of life without test. The taper never really did the trick.[quote]

However, I would also incorporate a SERM like toremefine at the end of the taper, depending on how I felt I was performing both in and out of the gym.
[/quote]
I will…tamoxifen though[quote]

So you may or may not incorporate a SERM if your taper seemed to do the trick?

Bushy[/quote]

I appreciate the help; I will be incorporating tamoxifen…when to start it though - I don’t know.

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taper + serm application worked well for me personally.

-6 to 8 week taper
-SERM during the final 2 weeks
-Continue SERM 1-2 weeks after taper is concluded if you feel it is needed.

[quote]Really, the purpose of running test at say 200-300mg /wk for say 5 weeks, would be to allow you to reach a known state, ie. you can establish a baseline from which to operate.

The problem with your plan (as I see it) is that with so many ester of test, you’re never going to be able to know exactly what’s going on, and must therefore operate by feel and instinct.
[/quote] seriously…I wish it never was my plan; I’m not easily upset and this cycle really pisses me off, mostly because I know it’s my fault for not properly researching it before I purchased the amps. My (old) connection (he’s been fired) said “dude, this is the same as sustanon”. Of course I get home and research it and immediately want to go back and shove it up his ass.[quote]
Running the test for 6 weeks, will effectively eliminate all the variables to do with your fluctuating hormone levels.
[/quote]even if I have to toss in another ester you think it would be worth it? How exactly could I effectively taper down a 6 week (add on)/cycle?[quote]
I wasn’t really calling you ignorant or meaning to insult you in any way. I just find it funny how theories fall into and out, of fashion, with people vehemently defending a concept they have no real idea works, or not.
[/quote]I’m confident I wasn’t very clear here Bushy; I honestly meant it literally…I was ignorant that PCT existed and thought SERMs were exclusively a gyno cure. I was indeed calling myself ignorant by definition. [quote]
Tapering used to be popular. Why? Perhaps because it worked.
[/quote]I’m with ya; because it does… to a degree.[quote]
Then a ‘new’ theory comes along (i.e. tapering is antiquated and a waste of time) and suddenly the old theory is no longer valid at all.
[/quote]I hope you don’t think I was indicating that…I don’t think one should ever say that tapering is not at all effective; even with the 1/2 life of the longer esters it still helps the cause. My problem is that mentally I feel like I’m going to stop making good gains during the taper off and my enthusiasm wanes a bit.[quote]
I find that to be a bit bizzare, though god knows I have been guilty of it myself in the past.

[/quote]yeh, I totally see your point. I myself was pretty excited about the possibility of eliminating AAS withdrawal; I believe I have set myself up for a rude awakening believing that PCT is the cure all end all of my post cycle problems. I have always had success with the taper but not to the degree in which I think it could be…I think that I will find in the end that a combination is best. I certainly believe the AI was helpful though because my head always blew up like a balloon in the past lol. [quote]
Regards

Bushy[/quote]

Thanks for the insight; please don’t think I took offense at any point…not even close. If I didn’t value your opinion really, I wouldn’t ask for it.

What I really still want to know is when to begin PCT, with and without the 6 week test smoother? Is this asking someone to put their neck out or something…the question continues to be evaded?

[quote]juice20jd wrote:
taper + serm application worked well for me personally.

-6 to 8 week taper
-SERM during the final 2 weeks
-Continue SERM 1-2 weeks after taper is concluded if you feel it is needed.[/quote]

Thanks for your post. This is the first I’ve heard of PCT during the taper; did you go against the grain intentionally after messing with it a little or did it just make the most sense to you personally to do it this way? Also, being the first use of SERMs for me what should I be feeling for on the taper off of PCT?