T Nation

PCT and Low Testosterone


#1

Hi. I just finished a 12 week cycle of Primobolan Depot 400/week, along with Omnadren (which is a coctail of different Testosterone esters) 50-100/week. I was also doing HCG the entire time at 100 IU each day. My cycle was going very well, I would have hit my goal by week 10 or even 8 and stopped the cycle, but I got a batch of fake Primo around week 6, did that for about 3-4 weeks before I realized what happened and got the real stuff aggain to complete my cycle. The fake one probably contained some Testosterone ester.

I finished my cycle, I did reach my goal, barely, I may have gone into week 13 before I stopped, Im not 100% on the dates but I figured whats one more week? I continued with the HCG for another week, then stopped that, and had one week taking nothing, so the steroid and androgen levels would drop. Then I did Clomid 200 and Nolva 40 on day one, then 100 clomid and 20 nolva for one week, 100 clomid and 10 nolva the next week. Then I stoped. I got depressed when I stopped the steroids, and even more depressed when I was doing the clonid and nolva. I messed up my training and nutrition a little and had other stuff going on, but I still did decent physical activity and Ok nutrition. I had dropped 1-2 kilos when I was finished with the clomid, and got a little fat (just a little) which I thought is OK, as long as I don't lose much more.

Now I've been off of clomid and Nolva for a week and I weighed myself today, I drooped 3 kilos this last week and this is scary. I don't want the cycle to have been for nothing, I did Primo because i wanted a permanent gain that was not extreme, but good quality lasting muscle. The weird thing is that I feel better the last week, I feel like I'm really recovering and going back to normal. My sex drive went down after the cycle, but I never had any trouble, I've had sex, erections, I can get one any time I want/need, I never had a problem except I didn't feel as virile.

My desire to hit on every other chick kinda went away, I had an urge to do it with every other girl all the time while I was on the roids. I had my test level tested today, I was expecting a little below normal. It was 100 ng/dl, which is apparently 3 times below minimal normal. Now I'm a little scared. What should I do? is this normal? DO I need more PCT and of so what should I take?


#2

i think i answer this in these threads:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/changing_compounds_in_middle_of_cycle

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/thoughts_on_planning_pct

long story short, your PCT was too short, and you started it before your blood levels dropped to where it would have been beneficial.....

EDIT: not to mention, Primo doesn't give "permanent gains, and the dose of Omndadren only managed to suppress your own test levels...


#3

OK these help allot, thank you. I did do a fair amount of research both before the cycle and at the end.
From all I read Primo is supposed to have exactly that effect; slow quality mass increase, which would last, and it is supposed to be safe, or at least among the safest steroids to take. The 100/week of Omnadren; 50 2 times a week is the way I took it, was just supposed to be an androgen source since Primo is highly anabolic but not at all androgenic, and my natural test would be gone.

How are these things untrue and what should I expect? What should I have done if I just wanted a moderate mass increase that would last as much as possible, while being safe and able to get off of roids afterward?

As far as the PCT, this combo is exactly what I read was optimal, in several websites they recommended 2 weeks of PCT, either 80/40 nolva, 200/100 clomid, or even better 40+100/20+50 Nolva + CLomid. I also read many times how Clomid was far better than Nolva, etc. So this kind of sucks, why is there so much false info, and not even so much in forums as much as straight smack on websites?

I'm going to start 20 nolva/day + Aromasin 25/day. Does this sound like a good Plan? If I should add/modify something please comment and thank you.


#4

Thanks allot foe the info, the links are very helpful.

I did do my homework before starting my cycle, almost everywhere I read up it said Clomid was best, even better if take together with Nolva. And at least in 3 places they recommended 2 weeks of it after a 12 week cycle. From what I read I should start 20/day nolva + 25 Aromasin for 12 weeks, with the last week stopping the Nolva and just taking the Aromasin. If this is wrong please correct me.

The reason why I was taking the small amount of Test was to add a source of androgens, since Primo is not androgenic at all and my natural test would be gone, just to mimic natural levels while on the cycle. From what I read Primo is the safest steroid, it is moderatly strong for adding quality mass that you would retain afterward. I know they also use it for cutting. Is this wrong? Was my cycle not well designed?

And are my current test levels normal/to be expected for being at this stage after the cycle, or is it really bad? How about the fact that I have a decent libido and am functioning normally sex-wise? Should this be the case with these levels of test, or should my libido also be gone (thank god it is not)?


#5

yes, you're right-many people use clomid and nolva for 3-4 weeks. (EDIT: to be clear, just because a lot of people say this, i don't many, if any, can prove why this is a good idea. i for one think it's a bad idea, for a lot of reasons)

part of the problem, is that steroid use has been largely underground for many years. for years "bro-science" was how we passed this info back and forth. now with that info (real scientific data) on the internet, we need to move past this and share the info and our sources...

you don't have to do a long PCT, but one does need to do several minimum things to recover. estrogen levels need to be under control, and one needs to use a SERM until blood levels are out of the body. i kick some ideas around in that PCT thread, but for a hard and fast answer, take Nolva at 20 mg/night post cycle for 6-8 weeks, and make sure you use at least a low dose of an AI on cycle into PCT.

all anabolic steroids are gonna suppress testosterone. some are easier on the body than others, but suppression still occurs. i think if you ran test at 500 mg along with Primo, you would have seen amazing results.

the best advice i can give a guy now, is to dig for actual evidence. there have actually been several studies on SERMs, AI's and actual steroids on healthy men, and solid scientific evidence that shows one what they can expect. personally, i try to give a link for any advice i give, because i want you or anyone else to know that i'm not just making it up, and for other people to be able to figure this stuff out for themselves.


#6

From what I've been reading lately, isn't taking nolva+clomid counterproductive? And that one should only take one or the other?

Nolva + tribulus has been my pct protocol twice now, and both times felt like I was %100 back to normal levels. Bodyweight hasn't dropped, strength has gone down a little. Libido is still in high gear. And thats after being shutdown from deca

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_training_performance_bodybuilding_gear/thoughts_on_planning_pct

link to cycobushmasters thread ^

It really should be stickied


#7

well, clomid has been shown to decrease GnRH, which is counterproductive in PCT. so in my opinion, there's no reason to stack the two... or stack any two SERMs. higher dosages and more SERMs aren't likely to do anything that one can't, but we can certainly expect an increase in side effects.

for stacking purposes, i think a SERM and an AI (aromasin, preferably) are far more effective...

we try to rush PCT, but no matter what, we have to wait for the esters to clear, because until they do, suppression still occurs.


#8

I just got the Aromasin today. Isn't tribulus a bunch of huwie? I've taken it way back before I ever thought of taking steroids, and I can't say there was any difference. After I read up, studies show that it doesn't do anything. It was actually discovered in Bulgaria, where I'm from, and its pretty popular here. But the original studie, done in the 70s, if I'm not mistaken, was apparently wrong. If you guys think it will help I'll try it, but what is the opinion of the experiences people out there? I know allot of people take it in PCT but then so do allot of people apparently take Nolva+Clomid to their detriment, so I don't trust the popularity argument.


#9

P.S. I've been wondering; will unleashed and similar stuff help me at all? It sounds good, but again, I don't buy it outright. What do you guys think?


#10

i have never seen legit data on tribulus, other than increasing libido.

in my opinion, nearly all OTC "test boosters" are BS... if they aren't, then there is prolly some proof as such.

EDIT: and by proof, i mean documentation on healthy men.... most supplement studies are notorious for using data collected on women, or even animals, and claiming that is an accurate expectation for the user...