T Nation

PCT and Cycle Opinion


#1

Hi, sorry to be another beginner who failed to educate him on his first attempt, didn’t realise there was so much behind a cycle as its easier to obtain said good than information that should/would make you have an organised regime before you begin.

We all make mistakes and I learnt recently after doing a cyc a couple years ago.
I believe it was sus250 and some tren only for a couple months or so with like 2 weeks weeks of dbol, was stupid and no pct.

Now I am doing my best to research everything and become better educated upon what I’m doing so I can make my own decisions about what I should or shouldn’t do. I’ve decided to join here and seek some guidance in response to pct and a possible addition to my cyc. I understand some frustrations some people may have and I apologise in advance for my prior ignorance.

I’m 25, 84kg at start of cyc, down to 82 today, 178cm tall. Nutrition in order with meal prep done and running sups as follows:
Wpi, casein, glycoject, lglutamine, creatine monohydrate, BCAA’s, preworkout with thermogenic, high strength fish oil x 4 tabs and high potency multivitamins. Been thinking of researching and finding some good liver detox.

Current cyc
Beginning 5 days ago on Monday

4iu HGH mon-fri - weekends off - for 4.5 months
(Attempting to obtain another package to bring to 6 months)
Test e (250mg/ml) - 1ml mon/wed/fri for 16 weeks
Bold Und/EQ (250mg/ml) - 1ml mon/wed/fri for 10 weeks
Going for lean muscle gain cyc.

Questions:
Been contemplating adding tren to replace bold for remainder of cyc. Opinions?

Pct not sure, heard a box of clomid and armidex?

Again, sorry in advance and I’m all ears to learning. Hope I’ve been informative with details.


#2

So you don’t have an aromatase inhibitor (until PCT??) or an analogue to LH to keep your testes from atrophying (hCG). Most have less side effects with nolvadex vs clomid. Also, you started your cycle before being sure about your PCT? Do you understand that people in your shoes have completely fucked themselves up by doing what you’re doing? For the rest of their lives.

Why not keep it simple and run something like:

-500 mg test cyp per week, injecting 250 mg twice per week
-hCG 250 IU’s every other day
-1/4 mg anastrazole/arimidex every other day

PCT - Nolvadex 20 mg every day for 4 weeks
- Adex 1/4mg EOD for 4 weeks


#3

I understand that after someone educating me a little better on PCT but he hasn’t got the experience himself to suggest as he hasn’t done HGH and that.
I realise I should have gotten a pct plan in place before beginning but due to my lack of knowledge I wasn’t aware prior.
Again I apologise as I know this can be annoying to the more experienced and comes across as negligent and plain dumb.

I’m coming to the end of week 1, but just to clarify:
I am running
4IU’s HGH 5on/2off (at that rate it will see me through till week 18, though I’ve read it’s recommended to go for 6months and that is only 4.5)
750mg test enanthate w1-30
750mg boldenone undelcylate w1-10

Are you saying I should drop the HGH and bold?
And change the HGH for hCG?

Also, you recommend I get anastrazole or arimidex asap and incorporate that into my course for the duration?

Thanks for the guidance on PCT, and I really appreciate any help and advice your providing!


#4

What is reasoning behind running a 30 week cycle of test?

By week 16 gains are going to have slowed and unless the main objective is long term damage to your HPTA i can’t think of any reason to do it.


#5

Jesus Christ. HGH and hCG aren’t close to the same thing. Start reading and fast. Read everything you can in this subsection of the forum.

I’m saying in the future keep it simple. Most need an aromatase inhibitor to keep estrogen managed. You don’t have one. Do you know where estrogen in men comes from and why it gets high to those on a cycle, specifically testosterone based? Do you know what hCG is and what it’s used for/why it’s important to have? You need to read and educate yourself. You don’t know anything, nothing close to what you should for what you’re doing and asking people to educate you is fine but lazy. This information is everywhere.

Keep doing what you’re doing but:

  1. Get some hCG and inject 250 iu’s every other day.
  2. Start off at 1/4 mg adex every other day
  3. Consider a shorter cycle
  4. Read and get educated. Start by reading those two threads above. This is serious business and I understand, you’re 25. I was 9 years ago.

PCT - Nolvadex 20 mg every day for 4 weeks
- Adex 1/4mg EOD for 4 weeks


#6

I apologise, I mean I am running the test w1-16, don’t know how I fucked that up. I didn’t add things up properly.


#7

I know they’re different, I wasn’t sure if you were saying I should keep it simple and change it around.

Correct me if I’m wrong as I’ve been reading up a little on hcg since being on HGH, it is used to help your body naturally produce testosterone? To prevent from shutting down during your course?

Apologies if I appear lazy and I will admit from reading I did expect to get roasted and that’s why I continued to read for a while but I began to think that I should be running an AI and possibly hCG during course though I didn’t want to appear stupid by suggesting it or cause confusion so that’s why I have just stated the basics and have asked for some guidance.

So my understanding is as follows:
M1-4.5 HGH @ 4iu/d 5on-2off
W1-16 test e @ 750mg/w
W1-10 bold @ 750mg/w

Add ASAP
Hcg @ 250iu/eod
arimidex @ 1/4mg/eod
Finishing at end of course of test?

And as for pct wait 3 days after last pin to begin? I should skip the long ester wait period due to my bold finishing early?
PCT:
W1-4 Nolvadex @ 20mg/ed
W1-4 Adex @ 1/4mg/ed

And is it fine to keep the HGH going throughout the pct?

Most of the negligence has stemmed from my source being a trusted friend and he said I shouldn’t need to worry about pct, that’s what pushed me to become educated as I became uncertain that it was not necessary.


#8

Wait two weeks after your last pin of test. Some people will tell you to drop the adx when you start your nolvadex. Personally I run the adx though the pct I taper it down to .125mg e3d. I have done it both ways and for me tapering it down through pct works best. Also if you are going to run the blod for 10 weeks then you can cut the test off at 12 weeks then start pct at week 14. Hcg will end befor pct and a lot of guys run hgh as long as they can afford it.


#9

@blackcoffee Thanks!
By adx, you’re referring to the arimidex I gather and you’re saying run it through the cycle and start a taper down throughout pct which I assume you’d finish both at the same time then?
How would one see a taper down work as?
Week 17- arimidex @ half of week prior? And for two weeks at that? Sorry I haven’t used so am not used to their cycles or tapering.

I’ve got goods to run to week 16, so I follow suite, load up the extra over a couple weeks earlier being 1000mg and then drop back to finish at 750g each week after until week 12 or just dump?

Guess that answers the question of replacing tren for the bold w10-16?


#10

I usually finish the arimidex at the end of pct or or the following week. I if you will go back and read ksman’s post he goes in depth about estrogen build up in the testis. Before using this method I always had problems with estrogen rebound. He discuses how to taper the arimidex down through pct. you are running a pretty heavy cycle for some one who does not have a lot of experience. I personally would not add the tren. Save it until you know what you are doing. And you can always save the left over test for your next cycle.


#11

Ok thanks! @blackcoffee


#12

@Hostile I read these posts out of curiosity. I’m always surprised regarding the small amount of Adex that is recommended. I use 120mg of T cyp/week and need 1.75mg of Adex/week to keep my E2 in the low 20’s. So how can as little as 1/4 tab EOD possibly keep E2 in rangers when injecting 500mg of T?


#13

Younger, athletes, typically lower body fat; less aromatization. The 1 mg adex/100 mg test doesn’t scale up well either, ie no one taking 500 mg test per week is typically taking 5 mg adex per week.


#14

Thanks. I assumed the 1mg of Adex per 100mg of T couldn’t possibly be linear as the doses of T increase.

Another question. Is Adex more efficient if it’s dosed more often? The TRT guys seem to take it twice weekly and the cycle guys seem to take it more often.


#15

i think that it is. logically, it would allow for more stable levels in the blood…

and anecdotal, i crushed my E2 inadvertantly when i was dosing it at .1 mg/day (that’s right, 1/10 of a mg)…


#16

Yeah there is a finite amount of aromatase in the body, and if you’re already taking enough AI to tie up most of it most of the time, then more is not needed. That’s why you dont see guys on a gram of test taking 10mg of adex.

I’m on 200mg test-c for TRT and my adex prescription is for 1mg twice a week, but I switched to 0.5mg EOD and have done well. Honestly though I don’t think that taking it only twice a week when test is at TRT doses will cause enough fluctuation to really matter.


#17

Thanks again! Much appreciated and glad I got on here and sought your guidance, now reading some more and understanding it a little better it’s made me realise how little I knew and still have to learn.

Placed an order tonight and will keep actively reading and learning!


#18

@Juggs if you don’t mind my asking, why such a high dose of T cyp? I started out at that dose and my TT and FT were off the charts. I dropped to 120mg/wk and am still having levels above the ranges. Are you concerned about the potential health risks? Still trying to learn from all the veterans on these boards. Thanks.


#19

@Nashtide basically just because I went to a clinic and that’s what they gave me. No good reason other than that’s where they started me and I’ve been taking that dose every since. I since have lowered my also very high hCG dose, which come to find out must have fried my leydig cells because once I lowered the dose my boys atrophied quite a bit. My TT and FT levels were out of range too, astronomical actually, when I first started, but since lowering my hCG dose my levels are now just barely within range.

I take liver and kidney support supplements year round, and a lot of fish oil and other things, so generally my cholesterol and other health markers have been very good, aside from recent liver values during a blast which involved an oral. I do also donate blood every couple months to keep hematocrit in check.

I suppose one day I will lower to the 120-150 range, so it’s easier on my body, but right now I’m enjoying the additional weight loss help, libido, energy, etc.


#20

Makes sense. For me, all the benefits of TRT seem to be tied to E2 levels. If I keep my E2 in the low 20’s I’m good to go. For some reason, my TT and FT are above range even at 120mg of T cyp/wk and 250iu of hcg E3D. I guess it’s good that I respond so well. I do have to take more AI than most however. I wonder if that’s from the hcg? I don’t care about fertility, but I don’t want my boys to shrivel. Sometimes I over think this stuff. I’m going to try takin the Adex 3x/week and see if that helps keep the E2 in check with a little less.