T Nation

PCT Advise


#1

Hey all,

Coming off a Test cyp 500mg EW, 12week cycle and entering PCT I could use some advice.

Im going to run Nolva and Aromasin as SERM/AI's.

PCT
W 15 Nolva 60mg ed, 10mg Aromasin.
W 16 Nolva 40mg ed, 10mg Aromasin.
W 17-18 Nolva 20mg ed, 10mg Aromasin eod.

I'm considering tossing in DHEA for lowered Cortisol levels, impoved mood/energy etc. Along with tribulus, zma and staple supp's.

However Im afraid the DHEA is going to be counterproductive towards my Nolva. Whats your take on this?

I did experience some minor gyno issues during the cycle, which I treated with Aromasin, so I've already been running that for a week or so.


#2

#3

Yes.

I’ve read those, they say nothing regarding DHEA or it’s interaction in either a PCT-cycle or along with Nolva/aromasin.
Some insight or even personal opinions would be gold worth!


#4

taking large doses of vitamin c will lower cortisol if that’s your main concern…


#5

[quote]Fronk wrote:
Yes.

I’ve read those, they say nothing regarding DHEA or it’s interaction in either a PCT-cycle or along with Nolva/aromasin.
Some insight or even personal opinions would be gold worth!
[/quote]

vitamin C or phosphatylserine would be better. neither is likely make to a huge effect, though…

DHEA is counterproductive in PCT, IMO… DHEA is also way more effective in women than it is in men, as well.

with that being said, it’s worth it to check your DHEA level from time to time, as they can decline over time…


#6

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Fronk wrote:
Yes.

I’ve read those, they say nothing regarding DHEA or it’s interaction in either a PCT-cycle or along with Nolva/aromasin.
Some insight or even personal opinions would be gold worth!
[/quote]

vitamin C or phosphatylserine would be better. neither is likely make to a huge effect, though…

DHEA is counterproductive in PCT, IMO… DHEA is also way more effective in women than it is in men, as well.

with that being said, it’s worth it to check your DHEA level from time to time, as they can decline over time…[/quote]

I think the effect of vitamin c can be substantial under conditions that would normally elevate cortisol:

Of course vitamin c wouldn’t lower cortisol below normal baseline levels, not that you would want that anyway.

IME, there have been times when I felt extremely stressed out or I would have high cortisol from training late at night that taking large doses of vitamin c made me completely nod off, which could be a consequence of cortisol dropping significantly


#7

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Fronk wrote:
Yes.

I’ve read those, they say nothing regarding DHEA or it’s interaction in either a PCT-cycle or along with Nolva/aromasin.
Some insight or even personal opinions would be gold worth!
[/quote]

vitamin C or phosphatylserine would be better. neither is likely make to a huge effect, though…

DHEA is counterproductive in PCT, IMO… DHEA is also way more effective in women than it is in men, as well.

with that being said, it’s worth it to check your DHEA level from time to time, as they can decline over time…[/quote]

I think the effect of vitamin c can be substantial under conditions that would normally elevate cortisol:

Of course vitamin c wouldn’t lower cortisol below normal baseline levels, not that you would want that anyway.

IME, there have been times when I felt extremely stressed out or I would have high cortisol from training late at night that taking large doses of vitamin c made me completely nod off, which could be a consequence of cortisol dropping significantly[/quote]

ah, let me clarify.

while PS and C might be effective at lowering cortisol, i don’t think they’re gonna be really all that noticeable in gaining strength or LBM, unless you’re engaging in a massive volume of training like that…

i think it’s simply easier to reduce training volume to what a “natural” athlete would be at in PCT…


#8

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Fronk wrote:
Yes.

I’ve read those, they say nothing regarding DHEA or it’s interaction in either a PCT-cycle or along with Nolva/aromasin.
Some insight or even personal opinions would be gold worth!
[/quote]

vitamin C or phosphatylserine would be better. neither is likely make to a huge effect, though…

DHEA is counterproductive in PCT, IMO… DHEA is also way more effective in women than it is in men, as well.

with that being said, it’s worth it to check your DHEA level from time to time, as they can decline over time…[/quote]

I think the effect of vitamin c can be substantial under conditions that would normally elevate cortisol:

Of course vitamin c wouldn’t lower cortisol below normal baseline levels, not that you would want that anyway.

IME, there have been times when I felt extremely stressed out or I would have high cortisol from training late at night that taking large doses of vitamin c made me completely nod off, which could be a consequence of cortisol dropping significantly[/quote]

this is another odd an angle to vitamin C and endurance training… apparently there’s an inference that suppressing cortisol too much can limit the training adaptation (and thereby, the gains). i’m not sure how much it would differ when one compared strength training to endurance training…

maybe like you said, take vitamin C around certain periods of high volume training/stress, and closer to bedtime…


#9

here’s some info on PS (phosphatidylserine) on cortisol: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2503954/


#10

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Fronk wrote:
Yes.

I’ve read those, they say nothing regarding DHEA or it’s interaction in either a PCT-cycle or along with Nolva/aromasin.
Some insight or even personal opinions would be gold worth!
[/quote]

vitamin C or phosphatylserine would be better. neither is likely make to a huge effect, though…

DHEA is counterproductive in PCT, IMO… DHEA is also way more effective in women than it is in men, as well.

with that being said, it’s worth it to check your DHEA level from time to time, as they can decline over time…[/quote]

^to clarify on this…

unless you know you need DHEA, i think introducing a hormone into PCT is going to affect your HPTA recovery, to a degree… it might not be very significant, but another issue is the risk of E2 conversion from DHEA, which is a pretty bad deal in PCT, due to the level of suppression.

DHEA does lower cortisol in men a bit, but for a pretty short time. below is a study where they gave men and women 200 mg of DHEA for 22 days. for women, it lowered DHEA for 29 days, but for men it only remained low for 15 days… so basically, men started to counter the DHEA dose pretty quick.

and here’s a study that showed a slight increase in estrone in men with 50 mg of DHEA with no apparent increase in testosterone.


#11

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]cycobushmaster wrote:

[quote]Fronk wrote:
Yes.

I’ve read those, they say nothing regarding DHEA or it’s interaction in either a PCT-cycle or along with Nolva/aromasin.
Some insight or even personal opinions would be gold worth!
[/quote]

vitamin C or phosphatylserine would be better. neither is likely make to a huge effect, though…

DHEA is counterproductive in PCT, IMO… DHEA is also way more effective in women than it is in men, as well.

with that being said, it’s worth it to check your DHEA level from time to time, as they can decline over time…[/quote]

I think the effect of vitamin c can be substantial under conditions that would normally elevate cortisol:

Of course vitamin c wouldn’t lower cortisol below normal baseline levels, not that you would want that anyway.

IME, there have been times when I felt extremely stressed out or I would have high cortisol from training late at night that taking large doses of vitamin c made me completely nod off, which could be a consequence of cortisol dropping significantly[/quote]

i was looking at a more in-depth article on that study, and saw some odd things…

the placebo group had lower cortisol 48 hours post race than they did pre-race, whereas the 500 mg group was slightly higher, and the 1500 mg group was significantly higher.

http://clinicalstudiespublishing.com/pdf/supplemental/intjsptmed2001_22.pdf

EDIT: ^one thing IRT that data, was something i read a while back that one shouldn’t take antioxidants preworkout, as they could become pro-oxidants, which i wonder if that’s what happened there…

regardless, i find your comment about vitamin C making you drowsy interesting. i think i’m gonna add that to my pre-bed ZMA and see if that helps…


#12

Hey guys!

Thanks for all the inputs and advice. Seems none really promotes keeping the DHEA in the PCT-cycle.

Another big factor (for me) would be that it promotes mood - coming off a cycle and enduring your PCT can be very taxing and mood with your test dropped to zero levels is always affected, running DHEA in your PCT it could help elevate the mood somewhat though, if it’s at the cost of being counterproductive towards your Nolva/aromasin - perhaps I should just endure the lowered mood and hope I recover faster instead.

What do you think?


#13

[quote]Fronk wrote:
Hey guys!

Thanks for all the inputs and advice. Seems none really promotes keeping the DHEA in the PCT-cycle.

Another big factor (for me) would be that it promotes mood - coming off a cycle and enduring your PCT can be very taxing and mood with your test dropped to zero levels is always affected, running DHEA in your PCT it could help elevate the mood somewhat though, if it’s at the cost of being counterproductive towards your Nolva/aromasin - perhaps I should just endure the lowered mood and hope I recover faster instead.

What do you think?

[/quote]

your testosterone shouldn’t drop to zero, though. you should be starting PCT as the blood levels from your cycle are decreasing, and as they taper off, your own production kicks in and gets back to where you used to be (hopefully).

if mood is an issue, then i’d look into a low dose dopamine agonist, as that will help with recovery, whereas DHEA will still be counterproductive.

again, if you think your DHEA is actually low, get it checked.