It’s a good thing you aren’t here to make friends Wreckless… 
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
vroom wrote:
Since when are their album sales in the crapper? Did they drop suddenly or something because they were doing well.
Anyway, there is a difference between being joingoistic, patriotic, unpatriotic and anti-american.
That’s where you’re wrong Vroom. You’re either with us, or against us, remember?
And if you’re against us, you get swift-boated, and dixie-chicked. And morons like Zap claim you sound bitter, and wonder why.
You see Vroom, in todays US you’re a true patriot if you encourage people to enlist and be killed in Iraq, so a few companies can make lots of money. You have to be carefull though. A true patriot doens’t himself enlist. He’s more like a recruiting officer you see.
So you tell these guys that they should enlist and go over there. The problem starts when they get back, a little bit wiser, asking questions. You don’t like them asking questions. So you swift-boat them again.
Works like a charm.
Don’t tell anybody though.
“are they really this stupid” he asks.
Are you Zap?[/quote]
You know dick about the US.
You have no understanding of the fact we have an all volunteer force. No one goes by force. And if someone joins up based on the words to a country song - well they pretty much deserve whatever they get.
We also have freedom of speech here. The Dixie Chicks are free to say whatever the fuck they want to say. How many days did they spend in jail for saying or doing what they did? Go ahead - how many? None.
Because they offended millions of americans and they decided to stop buying their albums and going to their concerts is just part of the game.
But you would have known that had your IQ exceded your age.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
You have no understanding of the fact we have an all volunteer force. No one goes by force. And if someone joins up based on the words to a country song - well they pretty much deserve whatever they get.
[/quote]
You missed the point of his rant. He never stated that they were forced in, though, I tend to believe they are forced indirectly due to circumstances (rich people have no need to join the military). His point was that the “patriots” just stand back and watch poor people get killed while they wave their flags singing, God Bless America.
Then, they come back from war totally messed up in the head with tons of questions (if they are lucky to come back) that no one can answer. They simply get told, “Thank you for killin’ to protect our freedom.”
What would you do to shake the memories of bloodshed–the blood you helped to shed and the blood you saw your comrads shed?
I simply shake my head in amazement. How many sons do you plan to take down to the recruiter to join so you can be a real patriot–I mean in an actual combat MOS in the USMC or Army? Before you start waving flags think about what it would really mean to support your sons in this meaningless conflict–and ask yourself is it a cause you think they should be proud to die for?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
I simply shake my head in amazement. How many sons do you plan to take down to the recruiter to join so you can be a real patriot–I mean in an actual combat MOS in the USMC or Army? Before you start waving flags think about what it would really mean to support your sons in this meaningless conflict–and ask yourself is it a cause you think they should be proud to die for?[/quote]
I served my country. whatever you think of me as being uber-patriotic is just ignorance of the fact on your part.
My son will drive himself to the Marine recruiter and sign up himself. He’s a very smart, very aware, upper-middle class kid. His incle did the same thing - from the same background.
I think your assumptions are bullshit. It makes you feel good, and gives you a way to justify your feelings, but you are very wrong. I’m not saying that there aren’t poor folks in the armed services. But I think you prejudge them as being just a little less than human.
And that is unjustifiable bullshit.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Wreckless wrote:
vroom wrote:
Since when are their album sales in the crapper? Did they drop suddenly or something because they were doing well.
Anyway, there is a difference between being joingoistic, patriotic, unpatriotic and anti-american.
That’s where you’re wrong Vroom. You’re either with us, or against us, remember?
And if you’re against us, you get swift-boated, and dixie-chicked. And morons like Zap claim you sound bitter, and wonder why.
You see Vroom, in todays US you’re a true patriot if you encourage people to enlist and be killed in Iraq, so a few companies can make lots of money. You have to be carefull though. A true patriot doens’t himself enlist. He’s more like a recruiting officer you see.
So you tell these guys that they should enlist and go over there. The problem starts when they get back, a little bit wiser, asking questions. You don’t like them asking questions. So you swift-boat them again.
Works like a charm.
Don’t tell anybody though.
“are they really this stupid” he asks.
Are you Zap?
You know dick about the US.
You have no understanding of the fact we have an all volunteer force. No one goes by force. And if someone joins up based on the words to a country song - well they pretty much deserve whatever they get.
We also have freedom of speech here. The Dixie Chicks are free to say whatever the fuck they want to say. How many days did they spend in jail for saying or doing what they did? Go ahead - how many? None.
Because they offended millions of americans and they decided to stop buying their albums and going to their concerts is just part of the game.
But you would have known that had your IQ exceded your age.
[/quote]
A question: have you heard the term “dixie-chicked” before, and what do you think it stands for?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I think your assumptions are bullshit. It makes you feel good, and gives you a way to justify your feelings, but you are very wrong. I’m not saying that there aren’t poor folks in the armed services. But I think you prejudge them as being just a little less than human.
And that is unjustifiable bullshit.
[/quote]
Since I don’t know you I will just have to believe you–but statistically you know the average person serving in the military is not from a middle class back-ground.
Many of the people who serve tend to serve because of the military history in their family. I do not include these people as being middle-class because the military inflates it’s statistics to include allowances, etc. Even a captain (O-3) in the armed forces would not be considered middle class (assuming the spouse was unemployed they has the mean 2.3 children) at just under $40K/yr.
Most people who join the military come from a lower to middle class background. Furthermore, 35% of all enlisted personell are minority–which is very skewed to current census statistics.
http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/apa/goals.htm
Where are all the other white people? Probably in college.
I am not correlating the two statistics just questioning that which you seem to be in denial about. Historically, poor people have always fought as the majority in any fighting force in any war. Yes I know, becasue there are always more poor than well-to-do. It seems to me even the middle-class aren’t “doing their part” either.
I served my country in Combat and if called I would do it again. As far as the Dixie Chicks go, I support their freedom to make any anti-American statement that they choose. I also have a right not to listen to them.
In a way they have the right idea. Speak up and be heard. If not, sit back and quit complaining.
Me Solomon Grundy
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I think your assumptions are bullshit. It makes you feel good, and gives you a way to justify your feelings, but you are very wrong. I’m not saying that there aren’t poor folks in the armed services. But I think you prejudge them as being just a little less than human.
And that is unjustifiable bullshit.
Since I don’t know you I will just have to believe you–but statistically you know the average person serving in the military is not from a middle class back-ground.
Many of the people who serve tend to serve because of the military history in their family. I do not include these people as being middle-class because the military inflates it’s statistics to include allowances, etc. Even a captain (O-3) in the armed forces would not be considered middle class (assuming the spouse was unemployed they has the mean 2.3 children) at just under $40K/yr.
Most people who join the military come from a lower to middle class background. Furthermore, 35% of all enlisted personell are minority–which is very skewed to current census statistics.
http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/apa/goals.htm
Where are all the other white people? Probably in college.
I am not correlating the two statistics just questioning that which you seem to be in denial about. Historically, poor people have always fought as the majority in any fighting force in any war. Yes I know, becasue there are always more poor than well-to-do. It seems to me even the middle-class aren’t “doing their part” either.[/quote]
Sorry to but in Max, but the link that you provided looks like over 50% White. How does that figure?
I was raised in upper-middle class family and I enlisted in the Army Airborne Infantry.
I?m not sure what the pay rate is for an O-3 these days, but just like any other job you have to add in the benefits too (BAQ etc).
Me Solomon Grundy
P.S. ? Not that it matters, but are you a Democrat?
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
A question: have you heard the term “dixie-chicked” before, and what do you think it stands for?[/quote]
I have never heard that term before you used it. I could give a shit what it means. But to humor you, I will say that it has something to do with being black-balled for one’s political stance.
The mistke you seem to make is that you think people over here give a flying fuck what the DC’s do. They don’t - that’s why they have fled to the Euro-market to try and get the album to at least break even.
Any press is good press - but the fact is, no one cares. I don’t listen to them because they are little more than a country pop formula group. Natalie is from my home town, and I had the pleasure of sitting in with her dad’s band years ago. She can sing - but no one should ever mistake her for a thinker.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Most people who join the military come from a lower to middle class background. Furthermore, 35% of all enlisted personell are minority–which is very skewed to current census statistics.[/quote]
Not in the great State of Texas. Whites are under 50% - which means black, hispanic, et al out number the evil rich white kid.
[quote]http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/apa/goals.htm
Where are all the other white people? Probably in college.[/quote]
You assume that there are no college grads enlisting. You would be wrong.
What is it I am in denial about? I think you are in denial about the fact that everyone in the military is there by choice. All of our heros over there made the choice to join and sign on there own.
I resent your implication that poor people are too stupid to know better. I live in a small rural town. The validictorian this year had a free ride to any college in the state. He also had other scholorships totalling over 30K. He turned them all back and joined the Marines. But he’s just stupid poor white trash, right?
It iis an utter embarrassment to this country when the lip service “support the troops - not the war” dickheads actually get a chance to speak their mind. we find out that the people paying for their freedom are really just stupid, poor, duped minorities. even if that is the case, they will have earned far more respect from me than folks like you that would rather make excuses for them than repsect them.
[quote]Solomon Grundy wrote:
Sorry to but in Max, but the link that you provided looks like over 50% White. How does that figure?
[/quote]
Correct, I am stating that it should reflect more what census statistics reflect in that minorities only acount for about 10% of the entire US population. If it were more equal there would be more white (European origin) and less minority.
I can’t answer you as far as being upper-middle-class…hoooray for you then.
Two data points so far. Anymore? please post if you are above lower-middle-class and you joined the military on your own with out a family military background. I have a feeling due to the nature of this site the data will all be skewed. Not too sure how many lower income people would view this site.
To answer your last question, I am not a demo-crap or a re-pube-lickin. I don’t affiliate with political parties being that I tend to try and remain objective–yeah right! I do tend to lean toward the left.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Most people who join the military come from a lower to middle class background. Furthermore, 35% of all enlisted personell are minority–which is very skewed to current census statistics.
Not in the great State of Texas. Whites are under 50% - which means black, hispanic, et al out number the evil rich white kid.
http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/apa/goals.htm
Where are all the other white people? Probably in college.
You assume that there are no college grads enlisting. You would be wrong.
I am not correlating the two statistics just questioning that which you seem to be in denial about. Historically, poor people have always fought as the majority in any fighting force in any war. Yes I know, becasue there are always more poor than well-to-do. It seems to me even the middle-class aren’t “doing their part” either.
What is it I am in denial about? I think you are in denial about the fact that everyone in the military is there by choice. All of our heros over there made the choice to join and sign on there own.
I resent your implication that poor people are too stupid to know better. I live in a small rural town. The validictorian this year had a free ride to any college in the state. He also had other scholorships totalling over 30K. He turned them all back and joined the Marines. But he’s just stupid poor white trash, right?
It iis an utter embarrassment to this country when the lip service “support the troops - not the war” dickheads actually get a chance to speak their mind. we find out that the people paying for their freedom are really just stupid, poor, duped minorities. even if that is the case, they will have earned far more respect from me than folks like you that would rather make excuses for them than repsect them.
[/quote]
Ummmm…I never used the words, stupid, white-trash, or duped. I am questioning why there are not more white upper-class citizens serving in the military–the same ones who love to wave the flag and give “lip-service” to patriotism.
You do not need to tell me about voluntary military service. I volunteered in the USMC a decade ago, however, my own experiences belies everything you are trying in vein to claim.
You need way more than two or three data-points (which is nothing more than anecdotal evidence, at best) to convince a scientist of fact. Given how ubiquitous the military’s presence is in Texas and your statement about it’s subsequent minority population it would then back-up my claim that more minorities (and therefore poorer citizens) are the ones joining the military. It does not take away the statistics of the whole country.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
You need way more than two or three data-points (which is nothing more than anecdotal evidence, at best) to convince a scientist of fact. Given how ubiquitous the military’s presence is in Texas and your statement about it’s subsequent minority population it would then back-up my claim that more minorities (and therefore poorer citizens) are the ones joining the military. It does not take away the statistics of the whole country. [/quote]
We have several large military installations here - but not enough to skew the racial mix. Not even close.
My issue with you is not that about the rich kids skating. my issue is that you seem to think that the poor folk that are doing the fighting are somehow less deserving of the respect they are due.
I have given anecdotal evidence to show that EVERYONE that has joined, or will join did so by choice.
Would you be in favor of an income based draft?
[quote]vroom wrote:
It’s a good thing you aren’t here to make friends Wreckless… ;)[/quote]
Nor to make arguments.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
And if you’re against us, you get swift-boated, and dixie-chicked. And morons like Zap claim you sound bitter, and wonder why. [/quote]
Here it was I thought members of the Left were big fans of dissent - and yet all that the reaction against the Dixie Chicks amounted to was dissent. Disagreement with Natalie Maines’ viewpoint. That’s it. Why would any member of the Left - whose chest swells with pride at the mere mention of ‘dissent’ - care that people had a reaction to her comments?
I have friends who boycott Exxon gas because the CEO of Exxon apparently made some comments about energy alternatives being a complete waste of time. Did the CEO of Exxon get ‘dixie chicked’?
The Left continues to get the concept of free speech all wrong.
The rest of the world with a brain has moved on from the hysteria and the conspiracy theories. Please find yourself in that trend.
[quote]So you tell these guys that they should enlist and go over there. The problem starts when they get back, a little bit wiser, asking questions. You don’t like them asking questions. So you swift-boat them again.
Works like a charm.
Don’t tell anybody though.[/quote]
See above. Do you have anything original to add, or are you content to hide behind cheap and lazy slurs like ‘neocon’, ‘swiftboat’, and ‘dixie chicked’?
Is it any wonder why political discourse is considered so bad nowadays?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
My issue with you is not that about the rich kids skating. my issue is that you seem to think that the poor folk that are doing the fighting are somehow less deserving of the respect they are due.
[/quote]
Respect is not even an issue here. I never once mentioned that I do or don’t respect anyone. On the otherhand, it is hard for me to give my respect to individuals for no other reason than they joined the military. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt–no biggy.
Combat is a different story: I have not been there (and am thankful for it from what I am witnessing from all of my friends who have returned) but it is still hard for me to respect people who are ordered to it. It’s a sucky job…just like so many other jobs but it is no more deserving of respect becasue of it’s nature. Maybe I’d be a little more grateful (respectful) if the job being done were necessary (my opinion).
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Respect is not even an issue here. I never once mentioned that I do or don’t respect anyone. On the otherhand, it is hard for me to give my respect to individuals for no other reason than they joined the military. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt–no biggy.[/quote]
…I tend to believe they are forced indirectly due to circumstances (rich people have no need to join the military). His point was that the “patriots” just stand back and watch poor people get killed while they wave their flags singing, God Bless America.
You are agreeing with wreckless about how evil the people are that wave the flags because they must all be rich. sounds like buttloads of respect from you. The mistake you make is assumong that all of the flag wavers are rich. You couldn’t be more wrong.
When has anyone been ordered to combat in the last 30 years? Name one military mission that involved anyone but volunteers since 1976, and i will kiss your ass. You can’t because it hasn’t happened.
I like the way you sit on yourass and look down your nose at the folks supporting the troops as if they are just cheering because it’s not their son or daughter over there. You are as big a hypocrite as there is because you refuse to give respect to folks that are giving you the right to look down your nose.
only in America.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I like the way you sit on yourass and look down your nose at the folks supporting the troops as if they are just cheering because it’s not their son or daughter over there. You are as big a hypocrite as there is because you refuse to give respect to folks that are giving you the right to look down your nose.
only in America. [/quote]
You raise a good point - I am intrigued at how we constantly get an education on what people supporting the troops or the war really think, even those these people will explain exactly what they are thinking and meaning. Apparently we need self-anointed translators to explain what is being covered by the false conciousness.
Way to focus on a tangent to the issue being raised guys.
It makes me sick to see this crap.
Patriotism is one of the core fundamentals of the US. Patriotism will come back to both parties once we are shelled on our own soil again.
Americans (libs and younger gen.) are becoming so pussified…it’s fucking sick.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
rainjack wrote:
I think your assumptions are bullshit. It makes you feel good, and gives you a way to justify your feelings, but you are very wrong. I’m not saying that there aren’t poor folks in the armed services. But I think you prejudge them as being just a little less than human.
And that is unjustifiable bullshit.
Since I don’t know you I will just have to believe you–but statistically you know the average person serving in the military is not from a middle class back-ground.
Many of the people who serve tend to serve because of the military history in their family. I do not include these people as being middle-class because the military inflates it’s statistics to include allowances, etc. Even a captain (O-3) in the armed forces would not be considered middle class (assuming the spouse was unemployed they has the mean 2.3 children) at just under $40K/yr.
Most people who join the military come from a lower to middle class background. Furthermore, 35% of all enlisted personell are minority–which is very skewed to current census statistics.
http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/apa/goals.htm
Where are all the other white people? Probably in college.
I am not correlating the two statistics just questioning that which you seem to be in denial about. Historically, poor people have always fought as the majority in any fighting force in any war. Yes I know, becasue there are always more poor than well-to-do. It seems to me even the middle-class aren’t “doing their part” either.[/quote]
the US is 69% White, 13.5% hispanic, 12.9% black, 4.2% asian, the rest other. I’m not sure why you think only 10% of the US is minority. We have 2 minority groups over 10%.
35% minority and 65% white is not THAT far off from our demographic breakdown. That is a 4% difference…hardly worth crying about.