Pat Casey... RAW

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
21

I think most people who criticize gear are not serious powerlifters. As a casual observer or general fan of sport, the thing that is impressive about powerlifting is the sheer amount of weight a human being can move. Once you learn that the gear accounts for a portion, albeit a small portion, of the lift, some of the awe factor is removed.

Now I’ve heard the use of gear in lifting compared to the use of equipment in other sports. In the extreme I’ve heard people say things like “without the race car the nascar driver wouldn’t be able to go as fast” and things like that.

But the reality is that in most sports the awe factor is found in how the athlete uses that equipment (e.g., he’s a great driver in the race car example or wow that ballplayer has a great swing). In powerlifting, that is not the case. No one is ever going to watch a huge lift and say “wow he can really make the most out of that bench suit!”.

Sorry for the long post, but I really think this is the reason so many people feel that lifts with gear are not as impressive.

22

[quote]TopHeavy wrote:
derek wrote:
Pat Casey, the first man to officially bench 600 pounds, squat 800 pounds, and total 2000 pounds. Casey was strong, strong, strong and his bench presses–done in a tank top or a T-shirt in the 1960s.

I see someone else got the 2006 IronMind catalog already;)

Just wanted to remind (or inform) everyone about this guy.

And make note that he used no gear for these lifts (the way I wish it was).

The bitterness involved in the bitching over gear versus no gear never ceases to amaze me!

As an example, is Gene Rychlaks raw bench shitty? Or does Svend Karlsen’s (sp?) deadlift suck? NO.

It seems the debate over gear is often used as a shield of sorts (not necessarily in this thread).

Imagine for a second if Casey were alive to use a bench shirt and a squat suit. His total would, I’m guessing, be in the 2400 range?

My point is this:

Raw lifters should stop bitching about gear and just get strong enough to lift without it. Surely, after 40 years, raw records should be near suited records.

Suited lifters should get real, and realize that in 40 years of innovation in equipment, that totals should be way up. A 2500 lb suited total is not really as impressive as a 2300 lb raw total when gear supposedly adds hundreds of pounds.

Either way, lift big and get strong!

Later.

[/quote]
Very true, it’s hard for me to get excited about a superheavyweight total under 2600, knowing what gear does.

I also remember Bridges hitting over 2100 at 181 in the early 80s. Few have beaten that and none could ubder his conditions.

23

Raw lifts AND shirted etc. lifts are ALL impressive. If I siad any different, I want to correct myself.

It sure is a whole lot less confusing when done raw, though.

One can only guess what training gear adds to a lift or any other physical feat. And that is the only drawback.

And the strongman vs PL issue is this; it’s not that strongman comps. do not allow training aids. It’s that the benefits are not as extreme or widespread(again, in my opinion).

I tend to lean toward the strength sports where less gear is used.

24

I just want to say i agree with Derek in principle. Actual strength has not really increased much on the top end if you take out gear.

If you think about, how could it. i doubt we’ll ever see raw benches of 1500 lbs.

Jim Williams did 700 over 30 years ago in front of reliable witnesses. Mendy is doing just a little more right now.

The most impressive thing about Casey is that he did these lifts on the crappy benches of the time. He gets more props from me for that than raw strength. Who here would want to bench 500 + on a crappy narrow upright exercise bench or squat 800 out of those old tire rim racks?

25

[quote]tom63 wrote:
I just want to say i agree with Derek in principle. Actual strength has not really increased much on the top end if you take out gear.

If you think about, how could it. i doubt we’ll ever see raw benches of 1500 lbs.

Jim Williams did 700 over 30 years ago in front of reliable witnesses. Mendy is doing just a little more right now.

The most impressive thing about Casey is that he did these lifts on the crappy benches of the time. He gets more props from me for that than raw strength. Who here would want to bench 500 + on a crappy narrow upright exercise bench or squat 800 out of those old tire rim racks?
[/quote]

Now that gets to the heart of the matter.

26

i agree with tom on this. i like to see the big weights moved in the wpo, and respect those lifters, but i acknowledge that squatting in 4 plys of material ot slightly above parallel in a mono-lift is a different sport completely than a raw squat, or even an ipf squat.

what i get a little(and i mean just a little) disturbed with is apf/ipa ect. lifters that beat their chests when they hit elite totals with 4 plys of armor plated gear and the mono-lift and suspect depth calling in the squat. personally, i think some of the numbers posted on various threads here of raw lifts are more impressive(though i doubt some of those numbers are real).

a 200-220lb 40 year old with a 550 100% RAW ATG squat(like tom, if you are who i think you are) impresses me more than a 300lber in his mid twenties who hits 800lb in double ply briefs, wraps, double ply suit, and in a mono-lift, at or slightly above parallel. no offence, but that is my opinion.

heck, quarter ton posted a pic of him with a 100% raw 550 deadlift. that impresses me more than some of the 800lb squats i see nowadays. heck, if you are a superheavywiehgt, using all the modern gear, and mono-lift feds, an 800lb squat should be expected, not celebrated.

i know several PL who are closing in on 800lb squats, and have yet to pull 600, or much over that. ???

27

Zen thought of the day: in reading the title, I have read the entire thread.

Now I must go meditate on this.

28

Why does everybody debate this? There are contests of both ilks all over the place now. It’s just two divisions of the same thing and I don’t personally feel that one is more impressive than the other. They’re both cool and this argument would only be interesting if it involved a few major players challenging each other, etc. Otherwise, it’s just something to talk about- not get into a bitch-slapping contest over.

As for Strongman vs. PL, again it’s two different animals. Both require similar qualities but aren’t really the same. It’s almost like comparing NFL lineman and throwers as athletes- similar but not enough to truly make a comparison.

Either way, I can’t see how people get so defensive when it’s really just whatever cranks your tractor.

Bottom line- keep moving heavy objects and everything will be fine.

29

Hi Guys
I am impressed by all great feats of strength whether they are gear assisted or not but sometimes I wish things were a little simpler.

I was asked the other day what the world records for the squat, bench, and deadlift were. When I told them the next question was why is the bench record higher than the deadlft record? Then you start explaining about gear and you’re into a half hour discussion. Then again back in the 80’s when I started training you’d hear of a lift and the question would be what was he taking now it’s what was he wearing?

In another 20 years I wonder what the question will be then?

Reagrds Chris

30

can someone tell me the point in gear in powerlifting??

has anyone ever squatted over 1000lbs raw deep like the olympic lifters squat. what abut rezazadeh, anyone know his squat and deadlift.

31


Some heavy dbell pressing.

32

Great picture. How much are those?

33

[quote]GDollars37 wrote:
Great picture. How much are those?[/quote]

I think they’re 210’s

34

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Ugh, Kaz did a 661 bench raw, a 900 pound deadlift in exhibition, and over a 2400 pound total with a shitty supersuit.

Don Reinhoudt did well over 2300 raw, with a 935 squat, over 600 bench, and over 800 deadlift.

Both these guys, along with Jon Cole were a lot more impressive than Casey.[/quote]

Enjoy the thread in general-but Pat Casey was no Jon Cole. I have met Pat Casey and talked with him-great man and sorry to see him pass-but his overall strength could not hold a candle to Cole-since this is T-mag and not a powerlifting only forum I will just tell you readers this-at 282 lbs Jon Cole Squatted 905 with wraps and a belt, benched 580 with a pause and then pulled 885 in 1972. At the same time Cole was one of the top american discus throwers-almost making the olympic team and he was the 2nd best american olympic lifter-to Ken Patera, with lifts totaling 1200. Cole still holds the record for the best official combined total lifts of the powerlifts and olympic lifts. While Cole was doing this he was the head strength coach at ASU, was married to Linda Carter’s wife and became a self made millionaire as the first original strength guru-long before the world heard of Poliquin, schroeder, etc.

If you are interested PM me as I can talk cole for days and had the pleasure of talking with his long time training partner Marv Allen for hours this year at a meet in Texas. I own a video tape of the 72 meet where he did his 2370lb total at 282 and his lifts have to be seen to be believed. The guy is a strength god.

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He was a great athlete, great article on him below:

36

Like usual, I get distracted from the original post and find myself in an argument over something silly.

The way you replied about Jon Cole was in exactly the right tone.

The fact is, I never tried to convince ANYONE the PC was the penultimate PL’er. Just wanted to spark a little interest in the “good ol’ days” when equipment wasn’t responsible for such a large proportion of the lift.

PC was NOT the strongest man of all time. But then again, I never said he was.

Thanks for the info on Jon Cole.

(and to the guy who pointed out that I got the new IRONMIND catalog… Been getting that catalog for about 12 years IIRC. I actually learned about PC through the internet years ago. Nice try.)

37

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
RJ

You must be quite insecure with your need to enhance. Every thread I’ve seen someone post anything remotely anti-gear you get your panties in a wad and jump up and down and piss and moan.

Some have done it without, you didn’t–we get it.[/quote]

What do I have a need to enhance?

And “remotely anti-gear”? Please. The threads I respond to are people spouting off about things they are ignorant about. Combatting idiocy is just a hobby.

38

[quote]Youch wrote:
Hi Guys
I am impressed by all great feats of strength whether they are gear assisted or not but sometimes I wish things were a little simpler.

I was asked the other day what the world records for the squat, bench, and deadlift were. When I told them the next question was why is the bench record higher than the deadlft record? Then you start explaining about gear and you’re into a half hour discussion. Then again back in the 80’s when I started training you’d hear of a lift and the question would be what was he taking now it’s what was he wearing?

In another 20 years I wonder what the question will be then?

Reagrds Chris[/quote]

that’s a real good point, everybody should read that again. i love all strength sports, OL, throwing, strongman, and PL. it would be nice to be able to show a person i am trying to turn on to the sport of PL i meet in a gym a video of PL competition without having to explain all the gear. most hardcore PL like the sport to be hardcore and underground, i personally would like to see more general acceptance. the tons of restrictive gear turn off a lot of people who otherwise might support or participate in the sport.

39

At the same time Cole was one of the top american discus throwers-almost making the olympic team and he was the 2nd best american olympic lifter-to Ken Patera, with lifts totaling 1200. Cole still holds the record for the best official combined total lifts of the powerlifts and olympic lifts. While Cole was doing this he was the head strength coach at ASU, was married to Linda Carter’s wife and became a self made millionaire as the first original strength guru-long before the world heard of Poliquin, schroeder, etc.

I think you meant to say he was married to Linda Carter’s sister. Do you know Cole’s best O-lifts?

40

[quote]Galvatron wrote:
At the same time Cole was one of the top american discus throwers-almost making the olympic team and he was the 2nd best american olympic lifter-to Ken Patera, with lifts totaling 1200. Cole still holds the record for the best official combined total lifts of the powerlifts and olympic lifts. While Cole was doing this he was the head strength coach at ASU, was married to Linda Carter’s wife and became a self made millionaire as the first original strength guru-long before the world heard of Poliquin, schroeder, etc.

I think you meant to say he was married to Linda Carter’s sister. Do you know Cole’s best O-lifts?[/quote]

I sure did mean Linda Carter’s sister. As for his best O lifts I am not sure-but if anyone wants a great read on cole-the December 94 edition of Powerlifting USA magazine has an awesome story and pics of Cole.