Biceps345, how does the C.S. Lewis quote hold up if a person doesn’t believe in all the events or details (many contradictory) of the Gospel narratives?
It doesn’t. And in that case, a person could see Jesus as “a great teacher” instead of the Messiah or God incarnate, even if you think this is a weak subsitute for your (interpretation of the) divinely-dictated text.
Since I read Tolstoy’s Brief Harmony of the Gospels years ago, I’ve admired Tolstoy’s interpretation as the most “ideal” form of religion. Tolstoy regards all the prophets as “great teachers of the divine truth” and believes that Jesus was the prophet whose message of God was the purest, and was the last prophet mankind needed.
As for the Gospel narratives, Tolstoy does not take them literally, like C.S. Lewis, but concludes what he thinks actually happened when Jesus preached his message and was killed for doing so.
You can agree or disagree with Tolstoy’s interpretation, but his tale does not have the contradictions that are difficult to reconcile in the Gospels; it profoundly sets apart the message of Christianity from other faiths (while respecting those faiths); and it contains the most positive portrayal of Jesus–he’s totally righteous and loving, and doubtlessly so–I’ve ever read.
well if you think the bible wasnt atleast edited your crazy…anyone who knows history knows how cruel and vicious those times were. Look at the Holocaust, you think it was any different, or that the crusades were not as gory…guns made things alot less messy…shit man the Rev War and Civil Wars were just nuts…learn the real stories not the sppon fed BS of what everyone thinks is “right”…you wont find it in a text book.
I can see how the question of the authencity of the biblical text could be brought up. This usually goes through the mind of anyone who thinks intelligently about the bible.
I mean was the translation distorted? Is Jesus’ life portrayed accurately? Did monks insert certain scripts into the scripture that shouldn’t be there?
These are legit questions, but can be answered if you research each of them. No, you will not find 100% of your answers, but when do you ever in your life when you have to make a decsion? I can tell you one thing, it takes just as much faith not to believe in the facts supporting the Bible, Jesus, and Christianity, as it does to believe in it.
Also, something for you to ponder, Brian. Would a man who taught us to “love our neighbor as ourself” stirred up so much controversy? Why would anyone be so passionately opposed to this man? The religious Jews were because they knew He was claiming to be God…so they some him as a blasphemer!
i have to say that sure there were some very minor portions of this film that could be debated, but honestly, it pretty much sticks to the script given in the gospels. the Bible doesn’t give us every single detail about what happened to Jesus from the Garden of Gethsemene to Golgotha, so that gave mel room to create.
ok, so the jewish guards didn’t beat him up?? well, peter just cut off one’s ear and there was a brief struggle. so testosterone and adrenaline is flowing, you think they didn’t rough Jesus up even a little?? the Bible doesn’t say they did, but it doesn’t say they didn’t either.
did mel intend the movie to be anti-semitic? who knows…but like i said, it sticks to the gospel accounts. most of the blame for Jesus’s death appears to be on the pharisees on the screen. but need we be reminded that no man had power over Jesus’s life(as stated in the movie as well as in the Bible)…it was His to give, thus he didn’t die a martyr, but as a pure sacrifice for all. i say ALL people everywhere. one can accept it or not.
i sat there in my seat for the last half of the movie crying uncontrollably as i saw this man broken before my eyes. may i never forget what was accomplished on Golgotha, this God man giving His life so that i can truly live.
“Bottom line: Rome wanted Jesus to die, just the same as they wanted all potential Jewish rebels dead. Rome wanted control, and rebels threaten that”
If Jesus was such a powerful rebel, it makes sense that Romans would want him dead but wouldn’t the Jews want him alive and on their side as an inspiration to all of them?
And why would Pontius Pilate NOT want to kill Jesus the first time?
So the Gospel is innacurate and false.
What you are saying is that much of the Gospel is a lie, and since the Gospel is the foundation of much of what constitutes Christianity, your religious beliefs are founded on the truth and the beliefs of Christians aren’t-they are based on an inaccurate Gospel.
And, if Jesus truly was a powerful, popular rebel, then why isn’t he adored by Jews, other than Jews for Jesus?
Of course, you can believe what you want to believe, its a free country- thank GOD.
Sonny, I’ll ignore your sarcasm because you ask some great questions. You wrote:
Probably because an untold number of Jews have been slaughtered in his name, and the fact that he is…to us…a false Messiah.
Maybe Jesus did have the popular support of Jerusalem’s Jews, and that’s precisely why he was crucified by Pilate (as a threat to his rule). Or maybe Jerusalem’s Jews rejected Jesus, because of his claim to be the Messiah…and that he didn’t back it up with the liberation of Judea! There were more than a few cases of Jews claiming to be the Messiah in that age. For example, do a search on Ben Kosiba. He’s one such dude! None of these “messiahs” are held in high regard in Jewish religious circles, because there can be only one Messiah, and in our religion, he hasn’t come yet.
[quote]What you are saying is that much of the Gospel is a lie, and since the Gospel is the foundation of much of what constitutes Christianity, your religious beliefs are founded on the truth and the beliefs of Christians aren’t-they are based on an inaccurate Gospel[/quote].
In a less obnoxious and judgemental way, that’s exactly what I believe. I have to, man! If I believed that the Gospels or Koran were the “Truth” then I’d be a Christian or Muslim, not a Jew. Same goes for you, too…
I do, however, think that Christianity and Islam serve a great purpose, in that they bring the belief in the one true God to many people who obviously would not have “caught on” to Him otherwise. So I do think that they are very much “divinely ordained” and that, in this way, Jesus is very much your Savior.
But, again…to me the Gospels are heavily influenced by historical events and a need by the early Christians to appear non-threatening to Rome. This manifested itself most prominently with the charge of deicide…Jews killing God…as a way of transferring the blame of killing Jesus from Rome to the Jews. This charge also implies
“collective guilt” for all Jews, for all time. Including today. Including me.
the !@#$ would you feel if Judaism’s sacred texts accused all Christians of killing God? And, then to follow that blasphemy, proceeded to slaughter millions of Christians over the next couple of millennia, using those texts as ultimate justification?
Ahh…now you’re begininng to understand the Jewish “reaction” to the release of this movie. I’m not trying to disprove your religion, Sonny. I’m just trying to get you to understand my tribes’ point-
Howof-view. I know that many Christians just kind of “roll their eyes” when they hear about Jews protesting some Church position or movie, I just wanted to give y’all the opportunity to understand why we do it.
With that said, I understand how the portrayl of Jews may be considered a marginal thing to those who watch the movie…obviously, you mean to be focusing on the Passion itself, and how that relates to your life. Jews are just afraid that, without a greater context given, some of the audience will only be left with a very negative view of Jews.
Boondoc Holiday, you write:
“ok, so the jewish guards didn’t beat him up?? well, peter just cut off one’s ear and there was a brief struggle. so testosterone and adrenaline is flowing, you think they didn’t rough Jesus up even a little?? the Bible doesn’t say they did, but it doesn’t say they didn’t either.”
Luke and John actually show that Jesus was not beaten by his jailers. In fact, in John, the only violence that occurs before Jesus stops any conflict among the Jews is Peter cutting off Malchus’ ear. In the next verse, Jesus has already been turned over to Pilate: “Pilate then took Jesus and scourged Him.” Luke and John are pretty specific, but all 4 of the Gospel accounts seem to indicate that Jesus was not beaten at all when he was taken into custody.
This particular abuse of Jesus comes entirely from Mr. Gibson’s imagination–NOT the Gospels–and is attributed to the Jews.
I personally think Gibson provided enough rope to hang himself when he told Bill O’Really (who was more up his interviewee’s ass than I’ve ever seen): “it’s evenhanded as much as I can make it; as truthful as I can make it to the gospels” Shouldn’t Mel have been MORE truthful to the Gospels to make it MORE evenhanded?
Biceps345, I hope you know that when Jesus said “Love your neighbor…,” he was quoting from the Jewish Torah.
As for the Jews’ reaction to Jesus, there is another problem with C.S. Lewis’ argument. According to their most primary texts, the Jews didn’t think Jesus was claiming to be God. Instead he was claiming to be their messiah, and then telling people not to follow the immutable divine laws (note: the Samaritans were already presenting the Jews with a similar problem). The Jews have all these rules for proving whether someone is the Messiah. A basic one is that he can’t be killed by his enemies. So they took this guy (who eventually inspired the Christian story of Jesus) willingly to the Romans and the Romans hung him. The Jews concluded this man wasn’t the messiah.
LittleJay, that wasn’t sarcasm at all! I really meant that we can choose to believe whatever we want to. Sometimes the written word is so easily misinterpreted…I’ve read that up to 90% of communication is non-verbal, meaning body language, and the remaining 10% is tone and the actual words being said. I can believe it.
Anyway, we (of course) will continue to believe what we want to believe: the jews will believe the old testament, Christians will believe both the old and new testament, and Mormons will believe both of them plus the book of Mormon.
I saw it. I knew what to expect and I was blown away, hard core. I am still blown away by it. It affected me in ways I did not expect. You can over analize it, break it down bit by bit, none of it really matters in the end. Pilate was a coward I think the movie depicted that pretty well. He was afraid of the jews and afraid of his caesar. The bad guys weren’t the jews, it was the sanhedrin, everybody knew that even then. Truthfully, we all did it, every last stroke. It’s a pity it took a movie to show me that.
You can like Jesus, or you can hate him, but you can’t ignore him. His death changed the world forever. You have to look no further than you nearest calender for evidence of that. We are not in the 4th year of the reign of Bush, it is 2004 A.D.
This movie was really bloody and really brutal. In other words, it was beautiful. The most beautiful movie I have ever seen.
"Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of these do you stone Me? The Jews answered Him, saying,“For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
This we after Jesus told them, “I and My Father are one.”
Yes, I am aware Jesus was teaching from the Old Testament! Of course! Jesus fulfilled so many prophecies in the Old Testament! He preached from the Torah, Christianity is an extension from Judaism, made possible by the ultimate sacrfice for sin…
Obviously, the Jews wouldn’t want to kill Jesus just because He taught from the Torah? He claimed to be the Messiah!
seriously, how can anyone think that in this day and age someone would go see a movie and suddenly start hating every jew in the world, so much that they would want to kill them? why does it always have to be US vs. THEM? christians arent against jews and jews arent against chrisitans. so give it up. noone is blaming anybody for anything. i dont go to my jewish friends and say “hey, u killed the lord savior, now give me $50 so i can forgive u” THE WORLD DOESNT WORK THAT WAY!
i realize that aweful things were done to jews in the past, but other nations suffered in the world as well. its not like everyone else lived in peace and happiness while only the jews suffered. so give up the defencive stance and embrace your fellow men and women. christians, jews, muslims, budist, whatever else is there, we are all the same. it says so in the bible that jesus was a jew and that he was killed by jews and romans. who else lived in palestine at the time? a black guy and an asian guy didnt come to palestine with a huge wooden cross and nail jesus to it, the jews and the romans did it.
in every movie someone will see something bad about their race, culture, nationality, religion, country and get pissed and start bitchin. it doesnt make it false or true, it just means that someone doesnt like it. so shut the hell up, watch the movie and be open minded. end of story.
“seriously, how can anyone think that in this day and age someone would go see a movie and suddenly start hating every jew in the world, so much that they would want to kill them?”
That was what happened with Passion Plays in the past and actually what might happen in France, Poland, Russia and throughout the Middle East. Besides as Christopher Hitchens noted, it’s not that this movie will create bigots in America, but it will give bigots, like that Pastor in Denver, a sense that their ideas will be more acceptable to the rest of the world.
“i realize that aweful things were done to jews in the past, but other nations suffered in the world as well. its not like everyone else lived in peace and happiness while only the jews suffered. so give up the defencive stance and embrace your fellow men and women. christians, jews,”
WHO THE HELL SAID ONLY JEWS SUFFERED???
“so shut the hell up, watch the movie and be open minded. end of story.”
Thanks for the advice, and for telling us how to love.
Pat writes,
“The bad guys weren’t the jews, it was the sanhedrin, everybody knew that even then.”
Actually the New Testament says NOTHING about the Sanhedrin. That’s a conclusion most Christians draw. It says “chief priests,” which can mean quite a different thing (and probably did historically). Throughout the Bible, “priests” and “high priests,” whether fulfiling various duties or acting as judges (the word “rabbi” actually means “judge”), are not synonymous with the Sanhedrin.
My point about Pilate was not that he was “a coward,” it was that he was a mass murderer and a sadist, which is the plain historical truth and the Gospel doesn’t contradict this.
“This movie was really bloody and really brutal. In other words, it was beautiful. The most beautiful movie I have ever seen.”
I don’t believe you are a fascist, Pat, but that sentence is out of the creed of a fascist.
“You can over analize it, break it down bit by bit, none of it really matters in the end.”
Umm…aren’t we talking about the story of a man people say was God incarnate? Aren’t we allowed to apply our intellects to that a little?
“Truthfully, we all did it, every last stroke. It’s a pity it took a movie to show me that.”
I do think it’s a pity it took a movie (!) to show you that. (Can I show you another movie to make you believe something else?) But I don’t think it did, you came to this film as a believing Christian. I did not. I’m afraid I will not take responsibility for scourging God, or crucifying Him, or eating His flesh and drinking His blood every Sunday. To each his own.
Biceps,
(BTW, Jesus gets away before he gets stoned in John 10)
As I said, many of us don’t believe the narratives of the New Testament. Therefore, I could just as easily believe the accounts of the Jews which say that Jesus never claimed to be God but only to be their messiah. In that case, C.S. Lewis’ argument doesn’t even get a foothold.
For everbody,
I can’t get enough of all this talk about “The Passion of the Christ” bringing to our secular culture a universal message of good vs. evil, faith and forgiveness.
I wonder how many of the Evangelicals Gibson cleverly marketed his film to, (pre-sold tickets to church groups and all), know that as a Catholic schismatic who rejects Vatican II, Gibson thinks ALL PROTESTANTS ARE GOING TO HELL:
www.azcentral.com/ent/celeb/0212gibson.html
"Gibson, interviewed by the Herald Sun in Australia, was asked if Protestants are denied eternal salvation. “There is no salvation for those outside the (Catholic) church,” Gibson replied. “I believe it.”
He elaborated: “Put it this way. My wife is a saint. She’s a much better person than I am. Honestly. She’s, like, Episcopalian, Church of England. She prays, she believes in God, she knows Jesus, she believes in that stuff. And it’s just not fair if she doesn’t make it; she’s better than I am. But that is a pronouncement from the chair. I go with it.”
Boondoc Holiday, I read the Book of John in my Gospels Harmony incorrectly. After the apprehension, Jesus is hit by an “officer” of Caiphus ONCE. It’s the turn-the-other-cheek episode.
i thought i was very average.
i am not chritian however have been brought up in a mainly christian family.
it was pretty much a doco on a guy who got beat to crap and had shit friends. it fails me how people can believe in Christ being the son of God if even his friends doubted him.
my thoughts anyway.