Part 2: What Naturals are Truly Capable Of

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
I know I basically just asked the same question twice to MassiveGuns and BlueCollarTr8n, but I’m also interested in your opinion too.

What kind of a modern “bulking diet” would you advocate in order to optimize muscle gains and take advantage of hormonal fluctuations, insulin response, etc.?

I’m assuming that your additional training in biology and the human body has given you some insight into how to optimize those processes, so I’m interested in how you would approach it.[/quote]

Ideal situation:

New trainer under the age of 25 with above average genetics who does no gain fat easily. For someone like that with a goal of being really big, those insulin responses to food intake will aid more muscle growth. It is only recently that many people seem to act as if insulin spikes should be avoided. They should if you are trying to lose body fat and retain muscle. That is not ideal for gaining the most muscle possible.

You may want to start another thread. I have a feeling this one will be screwed by the same nonsense that has been happening.[/quote]

Good call.[/quote]

Well, I tried creating a new thread but it seems to be in limbo somewhere. If that thread ever gets created, I’ll copy things over.

Unfortunately I don’t represent the ideal situation there with the “under 25 and above average genetics”.

What sort of dietary approach would you suggest for someone who has the genetics of a distance runner and an appetite that self-regulates to 135lbs @ 5’10?[/quote]

It sounds like you are one of those people that will have a hard time putting on weight. Do you find that you can eat whatever you want and you can still see your abs? If you are one of those people, how you should start depends on your lifting experience. If you are a total noob, just make sure you have protein covered for you weight, and eat a little bit more than your current intake, say an extra 300cal. Once you have a solid foundation in Squats, Deads, Military press, Bench, Dips and rows (as in your technique is solid) then its time to push it.

You need to buy a body fat monitor, Train your ass off, and just keep bumping calories till the scale starts to move. If its all fat, back off calories and up the training. Once you know wha your gaining level is, then you have something to work with. I have a feeling you will find the number you need to gain is going to be more than you are used to eating.

Dairy IMO is best for peri-post workout. Yoghurt is actually a great one, just add 500g low fat natural yoghurt to your post workout shake and drink it up. That will spike insulin to a massive exent.

The best foods to maintain glycogen are healthy carb sources. Oats IMO are the best. For some reason oats don’t seem to bloat you or make you gain as much fat. And I am personally of the opinion that you should have a high to moderate carb meal at night, it helps you sleep and night time is when the protein switches kick into overdrive, you don’t want to be dehydrated or carb depleted at that time, and you want insulin shuttling nutrients to the cells that need them.

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:
It might be an idea to read the paper and not the abstract before publicly stating an opinion. And just because everyone thinks the world is flat, does not mean that it is.
[/quote]

Yeah, that might be an idea (actually, it is an idea, but I’ll you slide this time), but nothing else seems to stop people from voicing ‘facts’ let alone something as innocuous as their opinions. I simply gave mine :slight_smile:

And again, I’ll reiterate that I can’t help but wonder why this study that’s fairly old by now, seems to have been largely ignored by people in the industry who would stand the benefit the most from it… odd.

S[/quote]

You’re a pretty level headed guy. Thats a good quality to have here :). Maybe in the future they won’t ignore it. I’d hazard a guess that the main reason is the vast majority of clients want to either look good or perform in a sport, neither goals lend themselves to getting obese.

There are also probably some legal implications from advising people to put their health at risk.

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]MassiveGuns wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period
Fact only so many calories are needed for this
Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Anything others want to add to this list?[/quote]

I’ve posted TWO references so far that support the argument that muscle can be force fed into existence. Please post ONE reference which supports the basic premise behind what you wrote.

(Plus heres a clue you need to write a coherent argument before you actually try and argue for it, so “Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period” is a retarded premise, since any person, who either lifts doesn’t, uses steroids or not or masturbates regularly can only synthesi(ze) so much muscle in a time period… :slight_smile:

Oh and heres another clue. The “fact” that you can only synthesize a limited amount of muscle tissue in a given time period is not conclusive proof that overfeeding does not change that limit, since the rate is dependant on hormonal status and inuslin is a hormone.
[/quote]

Did those references say the extra muscle was from fore feeding? No

To your middle statement I am not sure it’s english, it makes no sense.

I don’t believe I said anything about force feeding in any of my points. But since you brought it up I will wait for a study to show force feeding changes your bodies ability to syntheiss muscle [/quote]

Your first statement makes no sense, I’m not sure it’s english.

See how gay that was? I ducked the question and managed to make out like im stupid and don’t understand english.

I’ll use what limited powers of reasoning I have to attempt to decipher that incoherent statement.

Did the abstract say those muscles were from force feeding, no. Did the reference? Pull it and read it. You might learn something. Like what quoting a reference means. Does it take much common sense to deduce that when the paper is looking at the upper limit of fat free mass in trained humans, that when sumos are compared to bodybuilders, both groups renown for their eating, that the main and most important factor in becoming a sumo wrestler and therefore gaining muscle mass is the emphasis on eating?

Not much. But more than you have available to you obviously. Ever wonder why such a large part of their diet is rice?

Sumos are not renown for their excessive drug use. Yet they have exceeded bodybuilders, and more importantly the LIMITS on naturally obtained fat free mass for a given height from that faggy table.

Now why don’t you go find some references that support your argument (note what I said there) and post them? Should be a good laugh judging by what you came up with in regard to steroids. And if you do happen to admit to being retarded by not bothering to post anything then I guess someone else could hold your hand and do it for you.
[/quote]

What was laughable what I came up with in regards to AAS?

I would also like to know how you know sumos don’t use drugs?

And 3rdly me trying find references for you is am utter waste of my time as I just see you as a troll[/quote]

What was laughable was that I should eat grass and take estrogen to get hooooge.

Can you PLEASE go to school and learn basic reading comprehension. I stated that sumos are not renown for EXCESSIVE drug use. Some sumos do use drugs, this is fact. Do they dose up ronnie coleman style? No they don’t. Your average bodybuilder uses way more gear than your average sumo.

And 3rdly, its a waste of time because there aren’t any hence the challenge, and trolls don’t take the time to make reasoned posts backed up with evidence like I do. So I guess you are retarded after all. Good luck with that.

Have you grasped why your first premise was meaningless yet? PX summed it up nicely.[/quote]

Animal studies in many areas area ll we have better than nothing and the point was that estrogen added extra fat when using tren plz go re read

So now you are saying that sumos do use drugs and have more mass than natty body builders weird

New thread for serious discussion of bulking (in the “bulk and cut” sense) for naturals:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
New thread for serious discussion of bulking (in the “bulk and cut” sense) for naturals:

NO

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
New thread for serious discussion of bulking (in the “bulk and cut” sense) for naturals:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_bigger_stronger_leaner/how_to_bulk_for_naturals[/quote]

NO[/quote]

.

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
New thread for serious discussion of bulking (in the “bulk and cut” sense) for naturals:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_bigger_stronger_leaner/how_to_bulk_for_naturals[/quote]

NO[/quote]

.[/quote]

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:
New thread for serious discussion of bulking (in the “bulk and cut” sense) for naturals:

http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_body_bigger_stronger_leaner/how_to_bulk_for_naturals[/quote]

NO[/quote]

.[/quote]
…[/quote]
I think this was appropiate due to all the star wars stuff going on.

[quote]LoRez wrote:
New thread for serious discussion of bulking (in the “bulk and cut” sense) for naturals:

[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:

You would think if a study like this was significant it would have been referenced more by coaches whose job it is to pack on as much muscle as possible on their clients.

S[/quote]

Aaaah, but that is by no means the “job” of the majority of trainers in fitness centers the country over. Most of them are trying to target the most lucrative market…which is by no means the hardcore meathead bodybuilder…but the out of shape man or woman trying to lose weight. Most of them do not by any means have the goal of putting the most muscle possible on their clients in majority.

Also, athletes also do not usually have the goal of simply putting on the most muscle possible.

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]wramsey wrote:
X doesn’t seem to understand that you lose A LOT of water, fat and yes MUSCLE when you diet down. He’d be about 170 if he got in contest shape,[/quote]

Seriously…just stop. I need to lose nearly 90lbs to get into contest shape?

This has to be comedy.

You add nothing to this forum. You don’t even know how much I weigh right now…and even if I lost 50lbs or 70lbs I wouldn’t be under 180lbs. What the fuck are you talking about?

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period
Fact only so many calories are needed for this
Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Anything others want to add to this list?[/quote]

Add to it?

Statement: Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period

Truth: All humans have variable rates at which they synthesize muscle and this is an adaptive ability as well. Increased training can increase protein anabolism…meaning synthesis of muscle tissue is not static but changes in rate due to many variables…like age, stress, overall conditioning, sleep, etc…

Statement:Fact only so many calories are needed for this

Truth: The amount of calories needed for this changes as the needs of the body change. It can not be predicted but you can try to feed it when it is most ready to grow.

Statement: Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Truth: Combined with intense training, adding muscular body weight even if fat is added could contribute to increased leverage which could increase the weight used for exercises…which alone could lead to more muscle growth. Joint lubrication and stability is also a factor as many notice a decrease in joint integrity with extremely lean body comps.

Hormonal fluctuations associated with age may also allow more muscle to be built from more intake. This is why it is often discussed that even obese people do NOT just gain body fat…they gain fat and muscle tissue…even if that muscle gain is minimal…it comes without training.[/quote]

Plz note I did not finite numbers there just because of this so…not sure what your argument is[/quote]

You did not “finite” numbers?

What are you talking about?

Are you the guy claiming to be in med school?

WTF?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period
Fact only so many calories are needed for this
Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Anything others want to add to this list?[/quote]

Add to it?

Statement: Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period

Truth: All humans have variable rates at which they synthesize muscle and this is an adaptive ability as well. Increased training can increase protein anabolism…meaning synthesis of muscle tissue is not static but changes in rate due to many variables…like age, stress, overall conditioning, sleep, etc…

Statement:Fact only so many calories are needed for this

Truth: The amount of calories needed for this changes as the needs of the body change. It can not be predicted but you can try to feed it when it is most ready to grow.

Statement: Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Truth: Combined with intense training, adding muscular body weight even if fat is added could contribute to increased leverage which could increase the weight used for exercises…which alone could lead to more muscle growth. Joint lubrication and stability is also a factor as many notice a decrease in joint integrity with extremely lean body comps.

Hormonal fluctuations associated with age may also allow more muscle to be built from more intake. This is why it is often discussed that even obese people do NOT just gain body fat…they gain fat and muscle tissue…even if that muscle gain is minimal…it comes without training.[/quote]

Plz note I did not finite numbers there just because of this so…not sure what your argument is[/quote]

You did not “finite” numbers?

What are you talking about?

Are you the guy claiming to be in med school?

WTF?[/quote]
He had this phone once…

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period
Fact only so many calories are needed for this
Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Anything others want to add to this list?[/quote]

Add to it?

Statement: Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period

Truth: All humans have variable rates at which they synthesize muscle and this is an adaptive ability as well. Increased training can increase protein anabolism…meaning synthesis of muscle tissue is not static but changes in rate due to many variables…like age, stress, overall conditioning, sleep, etc…

Statement:Fact only so many calories are needed for this

Truth: The amount of calories needed for this changes as the needs of the body change. It can not be predicted but you can try to feed it when it is most ready to grow.

Statement: Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Truth: Combined with intense training, adding muscular body weight even if fat is added could contribute to increased leverage which could increase the weight used for exercises…which alone could lead to more muscle growth. Joint lubrication and stability is also a factor as many notice a decrease in joint integrity with extremely lean body comps.

Hormonal fluctuations associated with age may also allow more muscle to be built from more intake. This is why it is often discussed that even obese people do NOT just gain body fat…they gain fat and muscle tissue…even if that muscle gain is minimal…it comes without training.[/quote]

Plz note I did not finite numbers there just because of this so…not sure what your argument is[/quote]

You did not “finite” numbers?

What are you talking about?

Are you the guy claiming to be in med school?

WTF?[/quote]

Please explain what you don’t understand

[quote]spar4tee wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period
Fact only so many calories are needed for this
Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Anything others want to add to this list?[/quote]

Add to it?

Statement: Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period

Truth: All humans have variable rates at which they synthesize muscle and this is an adaptive ability as well. Increased training can increase protein anabolism…meaning synthesis of muscle tissue is not static but changes in rate due to many variables…like age, stress, overall conditioning, sleep, etc…

Statement:Fact only so many calories are needed for this

Truth: The amount of calories needed for this changes as the needs of the body change. It can not be predicted but you can try to feed it when it is most ready to grow.

Statement: Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Truth: Combined with intense training, adding muscular body weight even if fat is added could contribute to increased leverage which could increase the weight used for exercises…which alone could lead to more muscle growth. Joint lubrication and stability is also a factor as many notice a decrease in joint integrity with extremely lean body comps.

Hormonal fluctuations associated with age may also allow more muscle to be built from more intake. This is why it is often discussed that even obese people do NOT just gain body fat…they gain fat and muscle tissue…even if that muscle gain is minimal…it comes without training.[/quote]

Plz note I did not finite numbers there just because of this so…not sure what your argument is[/quote]

You did not “finite” numbers?

What are you talking about?

Are you the guy claiming to be in med school?

WTF?[/quote]
He had this phone once…[/quote]

:slight_smile:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]wramsey wrote:
X doesn’t seem to understand that you lose A LOT of water, fat and yes MUSCLE when you diet down. He’d be about 170 if he got in contest shape,[/quote]

Seriously…just stop. I need to lose nearly 90lbs to get into contest shape?

This has to be comedy.

You add nothing to this forum. You don’t even know how much I weigh right now…and even if I lost 50lbs or 70lbs I wouldn’t be under 180lbs. What the fuck are you talking about?[/quote]

Let’s see, you said you’d need to lose nearly 90 lbs to get to 170. I said you’d have to lose AT LEAST 75lbs to be in the 175-180 range, so… Seems the numbers about add up. Why so butthurt? Fatty need a cheeseburger?

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period
Fact only so many calories are needed for this
Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Anything others want to add to this list?[/quote]

Add to it?

Statement: Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period

Truth: All humans have variable rates at which they synthesize muscle and this is an adaptive ability as well. Increased training can increase protein anabolism…meaning synthesis of muscle tissue is not static but changes in rate due to many variables…like age, stress, overall conditioning, sleep, etc…

Statement:Fact only so many calories are needed for this

Truth: The amount of calories needed for this changes as the needs of the body change. It can not be predicted but you can try to feed it when it is most ready to grow.

Statement: Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Truth: Combined with intense training, adding muscular body weight even if fat is added could contribute to increased leverage which could increase the weight used for exercises…which alone could lead to more muscle growth. Joint lubrication and stability is also a factor as many notice a decrease in joint integrity with extremely lean body comps.

Hormonal fluctuations associated with age may also allow more muscle to be built from more intake. This is why it is often discussed that even obese people do NOT just gain body fat…they gain fat and muscle tissue…even if that muscle gain is minimal…it comes without training.[/quote]

Plz note I did not finite numbers there just because of this so…not sure what your argument is[/quote]

You did not “finite” numbers?

What are you talking about?

Are you the guy claiming to be in med school?

WTF?[/quote]

And I thought my english was bad!

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period
Fact only so many calories are needed for this
Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Anything others want to add to this list?[/quote]

Add to it?

Statement: Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period

Truth: All humans have variable rates at which they synthesize muscle and this is an adaptive ability as well. Increased training can increase protein anabolism…meaning synthesis of muscle tissue is not static but changes in rate due to many variables…like age, stress, overall conditioning, sleep, etc…

Statement:Fact only so many calories are needed for this

Truth: The amount of calories needed for this changes as the needs of the body change. It can not be predicted but you can try to feed it when it is most ready to grow.

Statement: Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Truth: Combined with intense training, adding muscular body weight even if fat is added could contribute to increased leverage which could increase the weight used for exercises…which alone could lead to more muscle growth. Joint lubrication and stability is also a factor as many notice a decrease in joint integrity with extremely lean body comps.

Hormonal fluctuations associated with age may also allow more muscle to be built from more intake. This is why it is often discussed that even obese people do NOT just gain body fat…they gain fat and muscle tissue…even if that muscle gain is minimal…it comes without training.[/quote]

Plz note I did not finite numbers there just because of this so…not sure what your argument is[/quote]

You did not “finite” numbers?

What are you talking about?

Are you the guy claiming to be in med school?

WTF?[/quote]

Please explain what you don’t understand [/quote]

Dude, your sentence isn’t even correct grammar so I don’t even know what you were trying to say.

None of what you wrote before was correct. I just showed you that. If you disagree, please disagree point by point.

It seems that once someone challenges you, you tend to give up.

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]wramsey wrote:
X doesn’t seem to understand that you lose A LOT of water, fat and yes MUSCLE when you diet down. He’d be about 170 if he got in contest shape,[/quote]

Seriously…just stop. I need to lose nearly 90lbs to get into contest shape?

This has to be comedy.

You add nothing to this forum. You don’t even know how much I weigh right now…and even if I lost 50lbs or 70lbs I wouldn’t be under 180lbs. What the fuck are you talking about?[/quote]

Let’s see, you said you’d need to lose nearly 90 lbs to get to 170. I said you’d have to lose AT LEAST 75lbs to be in the 175-180 range, so… Seems the numbers about add up. Why so butthurt? Fatty need a cheeseburger?
[/quote]

I wouldn’t be in the 175-180 range if I lost 75lbs. Not to mention this is a pointless discussion.

No one has to get into contest shape to determine their lean body mass.

It seems some of you do this so you won’t ever admit someone gained more muscle than you.

I have seen your pictures, whiteflash. You need to be taking more advice than you give.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period
Fact only so many calories are needed for this
Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Anything others want to add to this list?[/quote]

Add to it?

Statement: Fact naturals can only synthesis so much muscle in a time period

Truth: All humans have variable rates at which they synthesize muscle and this is an adaptive ability as well. Increased training can increase protein anabolism…meaning synthesis of muscle tissue is not static but changes in rate due to many variables…like age, stress, overall conditioning, sleep, etc…

Statement:Fact only so many calories are needed for this

Truth: The amount of calories needed for this changes as the needs of the body change. It can not be predicted but you can try to feed it when it is most ready to grow.

Statement: Fact eating more adds only bF that will need to be lost unless BF is of no concern

Truth: Combined with intense training, adding muscular body weight even if fat is added could contribute to increased leverage which could increase the weight used for exercises…which alone could lead to more muscle growth. Joint lubrication and stability is also a factor as many notice a decrease in joint integrity with extremely lean body comps.

Hormonal fluctuations associated with age may also allow more muscle to be built from more intake. This is why it is often discussed that even obese people do NOT just gain body fat…they gain fat and muscle tissue…even if that muscle gain is minimal…it comes without training.[/quote]

Plz note I did not finite numbers there just because of this so…not sure what your argument is[/quote]

You did not “finite” numbers?

What are you talking about?

Are you the guy claiming to be in med school?

WTF?[/quote]

Please explain what you don’t understand [/quote]

Dude, your sentence isn’t even correct grammar so I don’t even know what you were trying to say.

None of what you write before was correct. I just showed you that. If you disagree, please disagree point by point.

It seems that once someone challenges you, you tend to give up.[/quote]

Sorry for my iPad skills but I thought your dentist amazing trained super duper reading comprehension would take care of that

You should I was wrong how? I posted no finite numbers so again you are actually supporting my argument.