Parenting and discipline

Off Topic
21

[quote]silverblood wrote:
I was raised by my grandparents and they never whipped me when they were mad.
That wait until they calmed down was a bitch though.
[/quote]

Absolutely agree with this. This is exactly what my parents did with me, a period of 5-10 minutes of waiting but then we never got more than 2 or 3 solid cracks with a belt or paddle. I didn’t need to be spanked very often.

With our children my wife and I do the same thing but I won’t use anything to spank with. I make it a point to be sure that I am never spanking when I am angry and also not to appear angry at the time. I will send my son to his room first, then calm down and tell him why I am going to spank him and why what he did was wrong. We have had to spank him maybe two or three times in 6 years. Honestly, the only reason we have ever done it is when he has put himself in a position that he or another person could get seriously hurt. Other than that revoking privileges works for most things and sassiness/cussing has been handled with a small amount of apple cider vinegar and water.

22

I don’t have children, but I have taught junior high and high school students for twelve years in a regular education setting.

I was spanked frequently as a kid, but it was always something that I deserved, and I always knew why I was getting a spanking. I think the choice of discipline should be left up to the parent, and it’s not my place to judge. I believe every kid is different. Some kids can be disciplined without anything physical involved, whereas some kids may well need some physical punishment from time to time. If used appropriately and not as a form of abuse, I believe physical punishment, within reason, can be effective in many circumstances. However, I won’t criticize parents or guardians who refuse to use it either. Discipline is malleable, situation-based, and shouldn’t be approached in a ‘cookie cutter’ manner. The goal should be to correct behavior that violates norms or is otherwise detrimental to the kid and/or others, so one’s results may vary.

23

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I never got a whipping that I didn’t have the reasons for the whipping explained to me afterwards. I think this is a crucial aspect missing from a lot of people’s use of spanking as punishment and could very well lead to the belief that CB or magick alluded to. If they don’t understand that this is a whipping because they did something unacceptable and have alternative that would have prevented the whipping presented in a calm manner, then it just becomes “I made my Mom/Dad angry, I got hit, so when I am angry I should hit”.

Two keys are don’t whip a child when you are angry and always explain why the whipping occurred. [/quote]

Exactly.

Punishments work BECAUSE you know why you’re being punished, and you ACCEPT the “BECAUSE”.

I believe that people conflate corporeal punishment with higher incidences of violence because, frankly speaking, those who use corporeal punishment do it out of anger more than a tool for teaching or punishment.

I never learned anything when my mom exploded in rage. I didn’t have the time to. Instead, I went into fight or flight mode. Being much smaller than my mom and being child, I just cried and tried to run. As me and my brother got older though, it simply didn’t work. We fought back. And since we were bigger than my mom by that point, we no longer feared her.

Very different with my dad. He had his angry moments too, but in general he took the path of letting us know why we did something wrong. And, as countingbeans and usmccds423 wrote earlier, all he needs to do now is tell me that he’s disappointed that I didn’t do what I promised. That shit kills me.

Oh, one more thing- very important to actually have an unassailable reason why you punished someone too.

24

[quote]magick wrote:
Oh, one more thing- very important to actually have an unassailable reason why you punished someone too.[/quote]

Agreed with everything you said.

As long as by unassailable you include “Because I told you not to, regardless of what it was, and you did it anyway.”

To many children that I have been around expect an explanation for everything that their parents tell them not to do, and if the parent cant come up with or doesn’t give them an explanation then they feel its ok to disregard their parents wishes. You could send my into a frenzy faster with “But why” when you asked him and he told you no than anything else you did hardly.

25

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Some kids are just going to test to see if they can call your bluff and if they figure out they can you are screwed. To those that have small children that don’t believe in whipping, if you tried to put your child in timeout and the child got up looked at you and said “No”, what is your next recourse? [/quote]

I have a 4 year-old daughter who realized by the age of 2 1/2 that she didn’t have to accept timeouts. I’d put her in a chair or her bedroom, but she wouldn’t stay there. Initially I’d put her in her room and hold the door closed so she couldn’t get out, but that got pretty tiring and I didn’t think it was good for her psychologically to be kept behind a closed door. So we ended up putting a gate in the doorway to her bedroom and we put her behind that.

She can scream as much as she wants, but she doesn’t come out until she’s calmed down. What works best in our case is to ignore her while she’s screaming and then go back to talk to her when she starts sobbing. Normally she needs some kind of small symbolic victory (e.g. “I’ll calm down if you give me a kiss”) and we’ll let her have that. Certain things (like hitting) get her put behind the gate immediately. Other times we’ll give her a warning that she’s going behind the gate if she doesn’t obey us. There are also some occasions when she’s upset but hasn’t done anything wrong, and we’ll give her the choice of going into another room to calm down by herself or going behind the gate.

This approach seems to work well for us, but consistency and immediacy of the consequences are key. If we’re tired and let her skate or negotiate her way out of something, then we’re back to square one and have to start all over again.

26

[quote]OldFatGuy2 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Some kids are just going to test to see if they can call your bluff and if they figure out they can you are screwed. To those that have small children that don’t believe in whipping, if you tried to put your child in timeout and the child got up looked at you and said “No”, what is your next recourse? [/quote]

I have a 4 year-old daughter who realized by the age of 2 1/2 that she didn’t have to accept timeouts. I’d put her in a chair or her bedroom, but she wouldn’t stay there. Initially I’d put her in her room and hold the door closed so she couldn’t get out, but that got pretty tiring and I didn’t think it was good for her psychologically to be kept behind a closed door. So we ended up putting a gate in the doorway to her bedroom and we put her behind that.

She can scream as much as she wants, but she doesn’t come out until she’s calmed down. What works best in our case is to ignore her while she’s screaming and then go back to talk to her when she starts sobbing. Normally she needs some kind of small symbolic victory (e.g. “I’ll calm down if you give me a kiss”) and we’ll let her have that. Certain things (like hitting) get her put behind the gate immediately. Other times we’ll give her a warning that it’s going to happen if she doesn’t obey. There are also some occasions when she’s upset but hasn’t done anything wrong, and we’ll give her the choice of going into another room to calm down or going behind the gate.

This approach seems to work well for us, but consistency and immediacy of the consequences are key. If we’re tired and let her skate or negotiate her way out of something, then we’re back to square one and have to start all over again.
[/quote]

My sister is trying this approach with my nephew. Only problem is he doesn’t care if he is sent to his room. He also has learned that he can sit on his bed for 10 minutes, when she goes in there and is like “Can you be good now” he says yes and then proceeds to do something else he knows is wrong going through the strikes until she threatens to put him back in his room, then he behaves for an hour and starts the whole cycle over. It is a constant battle and no one can stand to be around the child or at their house because he is so bad.

She drew her line, a warning for x behavior and if you do it again you have to go to your room till you can be calm and say your sorry, then you can come out. So far she has just created a really good liar at three that knows how to push boundries so far he wreaks havoc without suffering any real consequences.

27

[quote]OldFatGuy2 wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Some kids are just going to test to see if they can call your bluff and if they figure out they can you are screwed. To those that have small children that don’t believe in whipping, if you tried to put your child in timeout and the child got up looked at you and said “No”, what is your next recourse? [/quote]

I have a 4 year-old daughter who realized by the age of 2 1/2 that she didn’t have to accept timeouts. I’d put her in a chair or her bedroom, but she wouldn’t stay there. Initially I’d put her in her room and hold the door closed so she couldn’t get out, but that got pretty tiring and I didn’t think it was good for her psychologically to be kept behind a closed door. So we ended up putting a gate in the doorway to her bedroom and we put her behind that.

She can scream as much as she wants, but she doesn’t come out until she’s calmed down. What works best in our case is to ignore her while she’s screaming and then go back to talk to her when she starts sobbing. Normally she needs some kind of small symbolic victory (e.g. “I’ll calm down if you give me a kiss”) and we’ll let her have that. Certain things (like hitting) get her put behind the gate immediately. Other times we’ll give her a warning that she’s going behind the gate if she doesn’t obey us. There are also some occasions when she’s upset but hasn’t done anything wrong, and we’ll give her the choice of going into another room to calm down by herself or going behind the gate.

This approach seems to work well for us, but consistency and immediacy of the consequences are key. If we’re tired and let her skate or negotiate her way out of something, then we’re back to square one and have to start all over again.
[/quote]
What if she decides to start crawling over the gate, then what? Also, how do you handle her misbehaving and being defiant of instruction when not at home?

My previous post sounded critical of your parenting and it wasn’t the intent. I am legitimately curious how people handle these situations when spanking is off the table, and the one that I know personally doesn’t handle them well at all.

28

Definitely a good tool to have, but as in most things in life, the context in which it’s used means everything.

29

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
My sister is trying this approach with my nephew. Only problem is he doesn’t care if he is sent to his room. He also has learned that he can sit on his bed for 10 minutes, when she goes in there and is like “Can you be good now” he says yes and then proceeds to do something else he knows is wrong going through the strikes until she threatens to put him back in his room, then he behaves for an hour and starts the whole cycle over. It is a constant battle and no one can stand to be around the child or at their house because he is so bad.

She drew her line, a warning for x behavior and if you do it again you have to go to your room till you can be calm and say your sorry, then you can come out. So far she has just created a really good liar at three that knows how to push boundries so far he wreaks havoc without suffering any real consequences. [/quote]

Oh my. A child who seemingly represents every reason why I say punishments don’t work all that well in the first place.

I feel for your sister. I truly do. I’d probably lose my head if my future child acted the same way.

A word of advice- Things can like this create cases like my brother in his adolescence. I’d strongly advise you to advise your sister to put the foot down, HARD.

I don’t even think that you can teach young children any real lesson outside of things that they learn themselves. The real point is for the parent to learn how to be an actual authority figure. Because being an authority figure isn’t about being angry all the time, nor is it about being the “let’s be friends!” type. It’s about knowing exactly how to establish fair boundaries and enforce them mercilessly. It’s also about being able to gain actual feelings of contriteness from the person being punished.

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
As long as by unassailable you include “Because I told you not to, regardless of what it was, and you did it anyway.”[/quote]

Even if your “I told you not to” was “Don’t be gay?” =P

I’m sort of kidding. I know what you meant in that post, but I’ve also experienced a lot of punishments that simply didn’t make sense.

One memorable one in my mind was this- I went to an arcade with my friend one time in 6th grade. I told my brother and my brother told my mom. My mom punished me for this. The thing is, she never told me that this was unacceptable, neither did she give a reason why I was wrong to go. She just didn’t like it and so chose to punish me.

Though, I suppose this depends on the child’s age. Older children should obviously be more independent, while younger ones should be kept on a tighter leash.

30

I was beat as a child. Like pinned down, grabbed by the ears, head banged on the ground until I couldn’t see. Thumped on the head with a big metal college ring so it looked like I was hit with a hammer. I was also whipped fairly often, many times with the buckle end of the belt. I don’t know if I turned out alright or not.

That said, I don’t really have anything against swatting a little kid on the butt to get his attention. Once they are able to reason a little bit, it seems like a lazy way to parent to me. I raised my 20 year old step daughter from the age of four, and my 15 year old from birth and never did more than pop them on the butt to let them know I was serious. Most of those times were when they were doing something that could hurt themselves or someone else.

I also taught for four years. I also worked at a a halfway house for kids convicted of molesting other kids. I also worked for Child Protective Services. I kind of believe some kids are “born bad.” I don’t think that can be beat out of a kid, but I don’t really know how to fix them either.

31

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
What if she decides to start crawling over the gate, then what? Also, how do you handle her misbehaving and being defiant of instruction when not at home?

My previous post sounded critical of your parenting and it wasn’t the intent. I am legitimately curious how people handle these situations when spanking is off the table, and the one that I know personally doesn’t handle them well at all. [/quote]

I didn’t perceive your post to be critical, so no offence was taken. I fully agree with others who’ve said that each child & situation is different. I was just giving an example of what seems to work for the moment with our daughter. We happened to find an approach that works, and we’ll go with it until it doesn’t work any more.

Spanking isn’t off the table for us, but we’ve tried not to use it so far. I can’t say for certain whether that will change as our daughter gets older. My daughter used to bite me when she was in her terrible twos and I actually hit her pretty hard on the hand a few times, but felt bad about it afterwards. There are times when I have to resist the urge to spank her, but I think that’s due to the fact that my parents spanked me as a kid. The books say that spanking is counterproductive, but who knows whether that’s right or just the latest politically-correct nonsense. If I do spank her though, I hope it will be for a carefully-thought out reason and not out of anger or frustration.

If our daughter misbehaves in public, she gets removed from the situation promptly and can’t come back until she’s calm. The only possible exception is if she’s alone with my wife in the grocery store when she misbehaves. In that case, my wife puts her inside the shopping cart and quickly tries to finish her shopping. One of our principal rules is that we’ll never, if possible, inflict our child’s bad behavior on other people. I’d rather spank my daughter than let her become one of those brats who act up in public.

I’ve never received one piece of parenting advice that’s worked for us, so I’m loathe to give any myself. The one useful piece of advice I’ve received from parenting books though is to try to determine what sets your child off and try to avoid those situations. We’ve also relaxed our standards quite a bit over time. So, for example, we let her get by with eating just a few veggies at dinner and sneak them into her diet in other ways. I personally think that a lot of kids act up just because they want attention and would prefer negative attention to no attention at all. If I see that happening with my daughter, I’ll try to take a break from work (I work from home) and spend some time playing with her. If that’s not possible, then we’ll let her watch cartoons or play with the iPad for an hour or so. That’s something we wouldn’t have dreamed of doing even a year ago, but I figure it’s better to have her doing that than standing behind the gate screaming.

32

Never once hit my kid, although I was slapped, switched, belted and kicked by my dad, and beaten with a wooden spoon by my mom.

33

[quote]silverblood wrote:
just for usmccds423 since the NFL thread was heading this way.

I was spanked, switched, and occasionally popped with a barber strap growing up. It didn’t make me abusive as I can count all my son’s physical punishments on 1 hand and have fingers left.

The worst he ever got was a switching with his jeans on and only a few pops. He is an excellent and loving dad and I’m proud of how I raised him. He was taught to be polite and respectful which is something you seldom see anymore. As a child he was taught not to pull stuff off shelves and tables so he was always welcome at others homes as they didn’t have to put stuff out of reach.

If he asked me a question I always answered it truthfully. I told him about drugs, things I did in the military, growing up as an “other” race, why I don’t go to church, and anything else he wanted to know.

I was lucky in that he had great friends I trusted. I knew the parents and talked to his friends as if they were my own children. Whenever he wanted to use the car I said no problem and threw him an extra $20 so he always had cash.
I was not perfect, worked long hrs, and traveled a lot so I had to work at it.

I guess to some it’s easier to beat a child than to work at it.

Any male can be a father but it takes a man to be a Dad!
[/quote]

But you did beat your child. You think calling it a “switching” changes anything?

34

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
There should be an outright ban on the sentence, “I was spanked and I turned out fine” in this thread.

There are tons of people who had to endure terrible abuse as kids and they turned out “fine”, not because of that abuse but despite it.*

*Not singling out usmc, or suggesting he was abused.

[/quote]

Obviously he was abused. If you wouldn’t literally defend him from physical abuse as a child and defend his child from the same cycle of abuse, you are the problem.

35

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
There should be an outright ban on the sentence, “I was spanked and I turned out fine” in this thread.

There are tons of people who had to endure terrible abuse as kids and they turned out “fine”, not because of that abuse but despite it.*

*Not singling out usmc, or suggesting he was abused.

[/quote]

Obviously he was abused. If you wouldn’t literally defend him from physical abuse as a child and defend his child from the same cycle of abuse, you are the problem.[/quote]

It’s not obvious he was abused, he said nothing other than he was spanked. If you believe that all spanking is abuse then lay out your argument.

36

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

[quote]silverblood wrote:
just for usmccds423 since the NFL thread was heading this way.

I was spanked, switched, and occasionally popped with a barber strap growing up. It didn’t make me abusive as I can count all my son’s physical punishments on 1 hand and have fingers left.

The worst he ever got was a switching with his jeans on and only a few pops. He is an excellent and loving dad and I’m proud of how I raised him. He was taught to be polite and respectful which is something you seldom see anymore. As a child he was taught not to pull stuff off shelves and tables so he was always welcome at others homes as they didn’t have to put stuff out of reach.

If he asked me a question I always answered it truthfully. I told him about drugs, things I did in the military, growing up as an “other” race, why I don’t go to church, and anything else he wanted to know.

I was lucky in that he had great friends I trusted. I knew the parents and talked to his friends as if they were my own children. Whenever he wanted to use the car I said no problem and threw him an extra $20 so he always had cash.
I was not perfect, worked long hrs, and traveled a lot so I had to work at it.

I guess to some it’s easier to beat a child than to work at it.

Any male can be a father but it takes a man to be a Dad!
[/quote]

But you did beat your child. You think calling it a “switching” changes anything?

[/quote]

So tell me about all the kids have you raised and your perfect techniques. You obviously are the model of a perfect parent.
The difference between what I did and beating is easy to figure out although trying to explain that to you would be a waste of energy. You appear to be simply another one of those that think they are experts at everything and good for nothing.

37

Somebody I worked with was against spanking in principle, and raised two children into educated, productive citizens without ever spanking them. But this guy had the gift of extremely irritating gab. I can imagine this guy blathering on and on at one of his kids, and the kid wishing he or she could take a beating instead.

38

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
There should be an outright ban on the sentence, “I was spanked and I turned out fine” in this thread.

There are tons of people who had to endure terrible abuse as kids and they turned out “fine”, not because of that abuse but despite it.*

*Not singling out usmc, or suggesting he was abused.

[/quote]

I agree. This is just poor logic.

If somebody said, “I was spanked and I really feel it helped me grow into a well adjusted adult with a healthy respect for authority and appropriate boundaries, and as a result I have made a considered decision to apply a similar approach to my own child”, that would hold more water for me.

39

[quote]CLINK wrote:
Never once hit my kid, although I was slapped, switched, belted and kicked by my dad, and beaten with a wooden spoon by my mom.
[/quote]

The wooden spoon thing… I got that. One time my mom took the spoon out of something she was cooking and I got burned on the back of my neck, she was more horrified than I was.

My dad beat the crap out of us, way over the top by today’s standards. I would have bruises, black eyes, split lip, etc. I was told to tell my teacher I fell down the stairs or something like that. Did I turn out okay? I’m not sure yet. But it did impact my relationship with my dad.

My own kids, they got a swat on the diaper at times, but I swore to myself not to do what was done to me and they sure turned out fine.

40

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
There should be an outright ban on the sentence, “I was spanked and I turned out fine” in this thread.

There are tons of people who had to endure terrible abuse as kids and they turned out “fine”, not because of that abuse but despite it.*

*Not singling out usmc, or suggesting he was abused.

[/quote]

I got the belt regularly on a bare ass and I’m fucked up. But you knew that.

Have never hit my kids. There have been times I certainly felt like it but that is an indication to me that it was exactly opposite of what I should do at the time.

That is not to say they have not been shown that everything they do has consequences.