T Nation

Paper Products

Hello,
I need some advice on a good paper anabolic cycle. I am tired of waiting on the perfect legal supplement to be invented. With all the money i spent and pills i taken i should be as big as Jay Cutler but im still the size of Napoleon Dynamite.

I have already tried paper products once before and saw pretty good strength gains. I have also did another cycle of sus 250 with ok gains but i new that would be the outcome with only doing a sus 250 cycle. Now im looking for a paper cycle that i can do without taking a 17AA product and because of my job i fly a lot so using needles would be out of the question.

Could somebody help me out with a good 8-12 week cycle?

Eat healthy.
get enough protein.
Supplements only feed your muscle.

you must work harder…

p.s. take my words lightly

As a rule, all orals must be either 1-methylated (primo and proviron) or 17-AA (everything else).

And nevermind the modest gains, I don’t even want to know how much 8-12 weeks of primo tabs would cost.

you arent going to get much insight b/c we dont have very much info to give our opinions on. some more specs/goals would help a little on giving you advice.

and you wont have very many options if you want to stay away from 17-AA. especially if you dont want injectables either.

[quote]chillain wrote:
As a rule, all orals must be either 1-methylated (primo and proviron) or 17-AA (everything else).

And nevermind the modest gains, I don’t even want to know how much 8-12 weeks of primo tabs would cost.

[/quote]

Hmm, let’s see … Primo at 100g/day, that’s ten squares a day … say 70 days … 700 squares … that’ll be $1120 thank you.

Oh! Sorry, I didn’t notice you said you didn’t want to know how much it would cost.

Andriol is the only other alternative, see the profile here:

Again, however, note the comment in the profile about the “catabolic effect on your wallet”. Also it is not available as a paper product.

Just curious but whats your reason for avoiding the 17AA’s? If you want to see any decent results, you don’t have much choice but to go with something thats a little rough on the liver. Unless you can find someone with a stash of MAG-10 they’d be willing to part with.

And by the way, 12 weeks is too long for an oral cycle. Try 6.

[quote]arcs wrote:
Now im looking for a paper cycle that i can do without taking a 17AA product

Could somebody help me out with a good 8-12 week cycle?[/quote]

[quote]BMC85 wrote:
you arent going to get much insight b/c we dont have very much info to give our opinions on. some more specs/goals would help a little on giving you advice.

and you wont have very many options if you want to stay away from 17-AA. especially if you dont want injectables either. [/quote]

My goal would be to gain 15lbs within a 4 month time. I read that with primo you would gain quality size and keep majority of what of you gained. Right now i weigh 173 with a little love in the mid section. Im looking to lose the love and gain some muscle. I am currently only taking protein and weight gainer.

[quote]firestanggt wrote:
Just curious but whats your reason for avoiding the 17AA’s? If you want to see any decent results, you don’t have much choice but to go with something thats a little rough on the liver. Unless you can find someone with a stash of MAG-10 they’d be willing to part with.

And by the way, 12 weeks is too long for an oral cycle. Try 6.

[/quote]

The only reason for staying away from 17AA products was because majority of the reading i have done on these supplements suggest that you get a liver function test once a month. Due to current work environment i do not have the ability to get the test done.

From everyone’s input it seems like 17AA products is a must. i read that DBOL is very strong one but it has high estrogen effects and you tend to lose mojority of what you gain on it. Why is it so popular if lose most of it and it high estrogen effects?

I would like to thank everyone for their input. It seems like 17AA products is a must. I would like to gain 15lbs within a 4 month period and would like to keep at least 10lbs of it after i have completed the cycle. Is this possible with paper products and what would a cycle consist of?

Look at the last few pages of this forum and do a search since there are a lot of threads on oral cycles. I would think that var plus either d-bol, drol or t-bol would make a decent oral cycle. Do a search on those 3 as there is alot of feedback on this site about gains + sides. You can probably squeeze in a couple short cycles in that time.

[quote]arcs wrote:
I would like to thank everyone for their input. It seems like 17AA products is a must. I would like to gain 15lbs within a 4 month period and would like to keep at least 10lbs of it after i have completed the cycle. Is this possible with paper products and what would a cycle consist of? [/quote]

If you go with Bill Roberts’ 2 weeks on/4 off protocol, you wouldn’t need to worry too much about liver tests. Also this approach minimises HPTA shutdown and avoids the need for PCT.

With this approach you would get 3 cycles in 4 months. 5lbs per cycle would definitely be achievable. For me, var alone at 60mg/day would do that (and lean me out a bit at the same time).

Others on the board (who are probably more advanced than me) would probably say to go higher on the dose and use a Class II oral to go with the var. They might need to to get noticeable results, but if you are new to the dark side you will gain more easily.

Given the relative prices, 60mg/day var + 30-40 dbol would be a good combo. For me, I would have to go with some liquidex as well if I included the dbol, as I am very prone to fluid retention.

[quote]arcs wrote:
My goal would be to gain 15lbs within a 4 month time. I read that with primo you would gain quality size and keep majority of what of you gained. Right now i weigh 173 with a little love in the mid section. Im looking to lose the love and gain some muscle. I am currently only taking protein and weight gainer.[/quote]

Well I would suggest looking toward injectables if you want to run a cycle for that long of a period of time.

Run some drol/dbol for 4 weeks (6 at very max) and have it kickstart a longer injectable cycle. Maybe some test E… drol/test E work well together.

my friend gained ~15 lbs after water loss with 800mgs dbol. So long as you do the right PCT and eat will you wont loose a ton

[quote]sharetrader wrote:
If you go with Bill Roberts’ 2 weeks on/4 off protocol, you wouldn’t need to worry too much about liver tests. Also this approach minimises HPTA shutdown and avoids the need for PCT.

With this approach you would get 3 cycles in 4 months. 5lbs per cycle would definitely be achievable. For me, var alone at 60mg/day would do that (and lean me out a bit at the same time).

Others on the board (who are probably more advanced than me) would probably say to go higher on the dose and use a Class II oral to go with the var. They might need to to get noticeable results, but if you are new to the dark side you will gain more easily.

Given the relative prices, 60mg/day var + 30-40 dbol would be a good combo. For me, I would have to go with some liquidex as well if I included the dbol, as I am very prone to fluid retention.[/quote]

The 2 week on and 4 week cycle seems good but do you have any suggestion what i should use during the off time?

[quote]kickbxer wrote:
my friend gained ~15 lbs after water loss with 800mgs dbol. So long as you do the right PCT and eat will you wont loose a ton[/quote]

How long was he using?

Wow, I must say I am pretty shocked to see these guys giving you all the advice they have. What are your stats? 173lbs ‘with a little love around the mid-section’ sounds pretty frickin weak… You understand that you have to have muscle first for steroids to be effective, right?

Go on, tell us your stats… Age, height, weight, and some of your weight lifting stats as well. Go on…

[quote]muscle_mike wrote:
Wow, I must say I am pretty shocked to see these guys giving you all the advice they have. What are your stats? 173lbs ‘with a little love around the mid-section’ sounds pretty frickin weak… You understand that you have to have muscle first for steroids to be effective, right?

Go on, tell us your stats… Age, height, weight, and some of your weight lifting stats as well. Go on…[/quote]

ok, well im 31 i can bench 270 twice, squat 315 three times, deadlift 315 four times. I am 5’10 and i weigh 173 lbs. I never broke 180lbs.

Hmmmm, well, your height, weight and strength are all kind of ‘average’ By that, I mean you are stronger than the average person but for bodybuilding you are pretty skinny and not strong.

why don’t you try 40 mgs dbol a day with 60-80 mgs var and .25 mg arimidex a day to deal with the estrogen from the dbol? run the dbol for 4 weeks and the anavar for 5 and start taking nolvadex at the end (for like 10 days)?? I mean, you should really be using injectables but perhaps this will work for you…

[quote]arcs wrote:
sharetrader wrote:
If you go with Bill Roberts’ 2 weeks on/4 off protocol, you wouldn’t need to worry too much about liver tests. Also this approach minimises HPTA shutdown and avoids the need for PCT.

With this approach you would get 3 cycles in 4 months. 5lbs per cycle would definitely be achievable. For me, var alone at 60mg/day would do that (and lean me out a bit at the same time).

Others on the board (who are probably more advanced than me) would probably say to go higher on the dose and use a Class II oral to go with the var. They might need to to get noticeable results, but if you are new to the dark side you will gain more easily.

Given the relative prices, 60mg/day var + 30-40 dbol would be a good combo. For me, I would have to go with some liquidex as well if I included the dbol, as I am very prone to fluid retention.

The 2 week on and 4 week cycle seems good but do you have any suggestion what i should use during the off time?

[/quote]

You probably don’t need anything. If I recall correctly, Bill Roberts wasn’t suggesting the need for anything during the off time. The whole point of the protocol was to go for a short time so that your HPTA isn’t shut down, therefore recovery methods need not be employed.

Mr. ‘In the zone’ let me tell you. Firstly, you need to have strength and muscle for steroids to work. that is why I said that. I was 2 months away from turning twenty five when I ‘took the plunge.’ Before I did that, I could rep out 275lbs for around eight on the flat. 365 for reps on the squats, 405 lbs on the deadlifts for reps, and various other decent lifts.

I weighed right around 215 at 5’10. So, I was kind of using myself as a benchmark. He sounds like he is reasonably strong just that he hasn’t hypertrophied very much muscle. This type of criticism can be good, just misinterpreted and frowned upon by a NEWBIE LIKE YOURSELF.