T Nation

Papal Candidate Says Church

Perhaps some other high ranking bishops will also be motivated to speak.

[quote] (Reuters) The former archbishop of Milan and papal candidate Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini said the Catholic Church was “200 years out of date” in his final interview before his death, published on Saturday.

Martini, once favored by Vatican progressives to succeed Pope John Paul II and a prominent voice in the church until his death at the age of 85 on Friday, gave a scathing portrayal of a pompous and bureaucratic church failing to move with the times.

“Our culture has aged, our churches are big and empty and the church bureaucracy rises up, our rituals and our cassocks are pompous,” Martini said in the interview published in Italian daily Corriere della Sera.

“The Church must admit its mistakes and begin a radical change, starting from the pope and the bishops. The pedophilia scandals oblige us to take a journey of transformation,” he said in the interview.

In the last decade the Church has been accused of failing to fully address a series of child abuse scandals which have undermined its status as a moral arbiter, though it has paid many millions in compensation settlements worldwide.

Martini, famous for comments that the use of condoms could be acceptable in some cases, told interviewers the Church should open up to new kinds of families or risk losing its flock.

“A woman is abandoned by her husband and finds a new companion to look after her and her children. A second love succeeds. If this family is discriminated against, not just the mother will be cut off but also her children.”

In this way “the Church loses the future generation”, Martini said in the interview, made a fortnight before he died. The Vatican opposes divorce and forbids contraception in favor of fidelity within marriage and abstinence without.

A liberal voice in the church, Martini’s chances of becoming pope were damaged when he revealed he was suffering from a rare form of Parkinson’s disease and he retired in 2002.

Pope John Paul II was instead succeeded in 2005 by Pope Benedict XVI, a hero of Catholic conservatives who is known by such critical epithets as “God’s rottweiler” because of his stern stand on theological issues.

Martini’s final message to Pope Benedict was to begin a shake up of the Catholic church without delay.

“The church is 200 years out of date. Why don’t we rouse ourselves? Are we afraid?”

Martini was much loved and thousands paid their respects at his coffin in Milan cathedral on Saturday.[/quote]

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Perhaps some other high ranking bishops will also be motivated to speak.

[quote] (Reuters) The former archbishop of Milan and papal candidate Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini said the Catholic Church was “200 years out of date” in his final interview before his death, published on Saturday.

Martini, once favored by Vatican progressives to succeed Pope John Paul II and a prominent voice in the church until his death at the age of 85 on Friday, gave a scathing portrayal of a pompous and bureaucratic church failing to move with the times.

“Our culture has aged, our churches are big and empty and the church bureaucracy rises up, our rituals and our cassocks are pompous,” Martini said in the interview published in Italian daily Corriere della Sera.

“The Church must admit its mistakes and begin a radical change, starting from the pope and the bishops. The pedophilia scandals oblige us to take a journey of transformation,” he said in the interview.

In the last decade the Church has been accused of failing to fully address a series of child abuse scandals which have undermined its status as a moral arbiter, though it has paid many millions in compensation settlements worldwide.

Martini, famous for comments that the use of condoms could be acceptable in some cases, told interviewers the Church should open up to new kinds of families or risk losing its flock.

“A woman is abandoned by her husband and finds a new companion to look after her and her children. A second love succeeds. If this family is discriminated against, not just the mother will be cut off but also her children.”

In this way “the Church loses the future generation”, Martini said in the interview, made a fortnight before he died. The Vatican opposes divorce and forbids contraception in favor of fidelity within marriage and abstinence without.

A liberal voice in the church, Martini’s chances of becoming pope were damaged when he revealed he was suffering from a rare form of Parkinson’s disease and he retired in 2002.

Pope John Paul II was instead succeeded in 2005 by Pope Benedict XVI, a hero of Catholic conservatives who is known by such critical epithets as “God’s rottweiler” because of his stern stand on theological issues.

Martini’s final message to Pope Benedict was to begin a shake up of the Catholic church without delay.

“The church is 200 years out of date. Why don’t we rouse ourselves? Are we afraid?”

Martini was much loved and thousands paid their respects at his coffin in Milan cathedral on Saturday.[/quote][/quote]

They chose a former Hitler Youth over this guy? WTF? The current guy must have had something
on the others, to force them to vote for him.

The Pope’s former butler had the goods on this character and had to fear for his life. Wonder if it had anything on blackmailing the other Cardinals?

“A judge at the Vatican on Monday ordered the former butler of Pope Benedict XVI to stand trial on charges of taking and then leaking documents from the popeâ??s private apartment that raised allegations of corruption at the Vatican.”

Dude’s a hero, gets arrested. Criminals…all criminals…

I’ve got a thread on that topic here. They’re all criminals.

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
(Reuters) The former archbishop of Milan and papal candidate Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini said the Catholic Church was “200 years out of date…”[/quote]

Stopped there.

Perhaps you could a give a primary source for this?

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Perhaps you could a give a primary source for this?[/quote]

"Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera has published his last interview, recorded in August, in which he said: “The Church is tired… our prayer rooms are empty.”

and,

"Cardinal Martini gave his last interview to a fellow Jesuit priest, Georg Sporschill, and to a journalist at the beginning of August when he knew his death was approaching. "

Both quotes are from BBC Europe.

So he thought it was a popularity contest. His mistake.

[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Perhaps you could a give a primary source for this?[/quote]

"Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera has published his last interview, recorded in August, in which he said: “The Church is tired… our prayer rooms are empty.”

and,

"Cardinal Martini gave his last interview to a fellow Jesuit priest, Georg Sporschill, and to a journalist at the beginning of August when he knew his death was approaching. "

Both quotes are from BBC Europe.[/quote]What is your point and are you the same guy who recognized my presuppositionalism a couple years ago?

Who cares? One liberal nut thinks he knows radical change is what is needed for an institution that has been chugging along tirelessly for two millenia now.

What, you posted this because it reflects your opinion? Let me guess: You aren’t Catholic. How’d I do?

Here’s some data for the US:

http://cara.georgetown.edu/CARAServices/requestedchurchstats.html

And I especially like this one:

http://religion.lohudblogs.com/2011/02/28/catholic-church-still-growing-mainlines-still-not/

Here’s the money quote, which pretty much puts the lie to the liberal idiocy the apparently demented Cardinal Martini was frothing about on his deathbed:

[i]The Roman Catholic Church reported 68.5 million members, which translates into growth of .57 percent. You have to figure that much of that can be attributed to immigration. The church?s continued growth seems to belie recent findings that 10 percent of Americans are lapsed Catholics.

Other large groups boasting higher numbers include: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, up 1.42 percent to 6,058,907 members; the Assemblies of God, up .52 percent to 2,914,669 members; Jehovah?s Witnesses, up 4.37 percent to 1,162,686 members; and Church of God (Cleveland, Tenn.), up .38 percent to 1,076,254 members.

Then you have the usual paragraph about sliding membership in the mainline Protestant world: ?Mainline churches reporting declines in membership are United Church of Christ, down 2.83 percent to 1,080,199 members; the Presbyterian Church (USA), down 2.61 percent to 2,770,730 members; the Episcopal Church, down 2.48 percent to 2,006,343 members; the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. down 1.96 percent to 4,542,868 members; the American Baptist Churches USA, down 1.55 percent to 1,310,505; the Lutheran Church (Missouri Synod), down 1.08 percent to 2,312,111 members; and the United Methodist Church, down 1.01 percent to 7,774,931 members.?[/i]

So in other words, “hardline,” conservative religions (including Mormons) have been experiencing growth, while members of more liberal offshoots that tend to embrace just the sort of “theology” Cardinal Martini suggests the Catholics adopt are falling away in significant numbers.

Forgive me if I don’t start pissing down my leg in over-excited support of Martini’s suggestion.

St. Malachy a Canonized “Saint” from the Catholic Church gave The Stunning “Prophecy Of The Popes”,
We need to be very careful here as Denominations can be infiltrated by some VERY bad people,
(“The Borgias” anyone?, Child Molesters that are NOT prosecuted but MOVED to other Churches BY THE CHURCH themselves anyone? etc. etc.
These Priests NEED to Marry, as trying to control Sexual Desire is next to impossible in the long run, and time and time again their Sexual outlets are always the innocent in their proximity.

So, back to Malachy…This STUNNING and riveting show had me transfixed for 2 Hours,
the research has been done, this undeniably meticulous well researched stuff, and if Canonized Malachy
said it, Catholics MUST give it a listen and take heed because…I couldn’t make this shit up.
Get ready to be floored.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/trunews/2012/04/16/trunews-april-16-2012

[quote]Karado wrote:
These Priests NEED to Marry, as trying to control Sexual Desire is next to impossible in the long run, and time and time again their Sexual outlets are always the innocent in their proximity.
[/quote]

Stopped here.

More idiocy spouted off as if it were common sense.

I’m calling you out. Produce one, just one study that shows celibacy to lead to any form of sexual deviancy.

Since priests NEED to marry, in your hyperbolic language, it shouldn’t be that hard to produce. I’ll be waiting.

Btw, no one has ever been able to answer this challenge of mine. I even tried to do it, myself, and was not able to. Good luck.

[quote]Karado wrote:
St. Malachy a Canonized “Saint” from the Catholic Church gave The Stunning “Prophecy Of The Popes”,
We need to be very careful here as Denominations can be infiltrated by some VERY bad people,
(“The Borgias” anyone?, Child Molesters that are NOT prosecuted but MOVED to other Churches BY THE CHURCH themselves anyone? etc. etc.
These Priests NEED to Marry, as trying to control Sexual Desire is next to impossible in the long run, and time and time again their Sexual outlets are always the innocent in their proximity.

So, back to Malachy…This STUNNING and riveting show had me transfixed for 2 Hours,
the research has been done, this undeniably meticulous well researched stuff, and if Canonized Malachy
said it, Catholics MUST give it a listen and take heed because…I couldn’t make this shit up.
Get ready to be floored.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/trunews/2012/04/16/trunews-april-16-2012 [/quote]

If priests need to marry then explain why the public school system, which doesn’t make their faculty take a vow of celibacy, has a much bigger problem than the Church. Explain the fathers, brothers, and uncles with wandering hands. See, just because you hit a dry spell with the ladies, and subsequently found yourself cruising by the local Toys-R-US an uncomfortable amount of times per day, doesn’t mean the rest of us normals go Pedo. And hello, HH.

“I’m calling you out. Produce one, just one study that shows celibacy to lead to any form of sexual deviancy.”

Trick question, and one I will not be cornered into…nice try though, as even if ONE study was produced
you would question it as being biased, killing any chance anyway of opening your mind that if their desires aren’t the result prolonged celibacy, the only other explanations would be either an Organized Conspiracy of Gay Pedophiles infiltrating the Priesthood, or that the many of abused Alter Boys over the years are just plain full of shit and suffer from collective amnesia and recall.
I’m sorry to bring this issue up in the first place, What was I THINKING?? If it wasn’t a problem in the past ‘Priest relocation’ processes of the Hiearchy, how on EARTH could it ever be a problem with a Congragate
like yourself?

That being said, Catholics themselves are some pretty good people themselves just like ANYONE else,
So please don’t trap me into any trick questions, and I promise not to trap YOU into answering where in the Bible does it say That Jesus would send her Mother Mary Via any Apparitions and Messages that completely contradict the Messages of Scripture?
(Btw, no one has ever been able to answer THIS challenge of mine. I even tried to do it, myself, and was not able to…Good luck.)

[quote]Karado wrote:

Trick question, and one I will not be cornered into…

[/quote]

And, ignored.

“If priests need to marry then explain why the public school system, which doesn’t make their faculty take a vow of celibacy, has a much bigger problem than the Church”.

Shhhhh, here’s a secret…ready? Come closer…maybe, JUST maybe, there are tens of Millions more Students
in Public School, as well as Millions more Teachers who are not vetted and not held to the much Higher Standard and Calling a Priest has…All things being equal for the sake of fairness I suspect that the problem is about the same, I STILL think Priests should Marry…There, I said it…“Should” Marry…Maybe “Need” was too strong a word…Yet SOMETHING tells me that still won’t “satisfy”
Will it??..I thought so.

[quote]Karado wrote:
“If priests need to marry then explain why the public school system, which doesn’t make their faculty take a vow of celibacy, has a much bigger problem than the Church”.

Shhhhh, here’s a secret…ready? Come closer…maybe, JUST maybe, there are tens of Millions more Students
in Public School, as well as Millions more Teachers who are not vetted and not held to the much Higher Standard and Calling a Priest has…All things being equal for the sake of fairness I suspect that the problem is about the same, I STILL think Priests should Marry…There, I said it…“Should” Marry…Maybe “Need” was too strong a word…Yet SOMETHING tells me that still won’t “satisfy”
Will it??..I thought so. [/quote]

Not that I don’t agree with you (to a degree), but you need to learn when to use capital letters. Not that I’m perfect, but your posts hurt my eyes.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
These Priests NEED to Marry, as trying to control Sexual Desire is next to impossible in the long run, and time and time again their Sexual outlets are always the innocent in their proximity.
[/quote]

Stopped here.

More idiocy spouted off as if it were common sense.

I’m calling you out. Produce one, just one study that shows celibacy to lead to any form of sexual deviancy.

Since priests NEED to marry, in your hyperbolic language, it shouldn’t be that hard to produce. I’ll be waiting.

Btw, no one has ever been able to answer this challenge of mine. I even tried to do it, myself, and was not able to. Good luck. [/quote]

Could be the other way around.

Maybe celibacy acts as a shield for the sexually deviant.

Until, one day, it no longer does, which would look much the same from the outside.

[quote]Karado wrote:
“I’m calling you out. Produce one, just one study that shows celibacy to lead to any form of sexual deviancy.”

Trick question, and one I will not be cornered into…
[/quote]

So you cant.

Cool, that’s what I thought.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
These Priests NEED to Marry, as trying to control Sexual Desire is next to impossible in the long run, and time and time again their Sexual outlets are always the innocent in their proximity.
[/quote]

Stopped here.

More idiocy spouted off as if it were common sense.

I’m calling you out. Produce one, just one study that shows celibacy to lead to any form of sexual deviancy.

Since priests NEED to marry, in your hyperbolic language, it shouldn’t be that hard to produce. I’ll be waiting.

Btw, no one has ever been able to answer this challenge of mine. I even tried to do it, myself, and was not able to. Good luck. [/quote]

Could be the other way around.

Maybe celibacy acts as a shield for the sexually deviant.

Until, one day, it no longer does, which would look much the same from the outside. [/quote]

See Sloth’s post, above.

There is really no correlation, no evidence of it, none, not the slightest inkling, between celibacy and sexual deviancy.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Karado wrote:
These Priests NEED to Marry, as trying to control Sexual Desire is next to impossible in the long run, and time and time again their Sexual outlets are always the innocent in their proximity.
[/quote]

Stopped here.

More idiocy spouted off as if it were common sense.

I’m calling you out. Produce one, just one study that shows celibacy to lead to any form of sexual deviancy.

Since priests NEED to marry, in your hyperbolic language, it shouldn’t be that hard to produce. I’ll be waiting.

Btw, no one has ever been able to answer this challenge of mine. I even tried to do it, myself, and was not able to. Good luck. [/quote]

Could be the other way around.

Maybe celibacy acts as a shield for the sexually deviant.

Until, one day, it no longer does, which would look much the same from the outside. [/quote]

See Sloth’s post, above.

There is really no correlation, no evidence of it, none, not the slightest inkling, between celibacy and sexual deviancy. [/quote]

Why would there be?

Who has an interest to dig evidence up and how would he make priest be honest in a survey?

And that is if you do not count celibacy as a sexual deviancy, because then the numbers would be as high as 50% !!!