P22 Taper PCT

This is not a direct response to the Schwarzy post as I am not on the “vet” list, but I have a descent amount of experience with AAS and just completed my first taper so I thought I would throw in my .02.

After a 12 week cycle of test E 500mg/week and EQ 400mg/week I did 4 weeks at 100mg/week and lost no strength or weight in that time. My actual taper was 5 weeks 75,75,50,50,25 with testE and IGF-1. I actually gained 5lbs and 20lbs of strength doing so. I finished my taper with a SERM. Clomid for three weeks 150,100,50.

I know that it is not essential to run a serm but I figured it couldn’t hurt.
My point is that during the entire taper I never had mood/libido issues, I gained size and strength (due to the IGF) and kept it all.
Obviously my taper is not ideal due to the IGF use but I will use this style of PCT everytime from now on.

there is so much debate onn this that it makes my head spin.but you have people who have done this successfully and others who havent,i wish is was simple like black and white instead of gray.i wish some other vets and docs would toss this up somemore on discussion.

[quote]2thepain wrote:
This is not a direct response to the Schwarzy post as I am not on the “vet” list, but I have a descent amount of experience with AAS and just completed my first taper so I thought I would throw in my .02.

After a 12 week cycle of test E 500mg/week and EQ 400mg/week I did 4 weeks at 100mg/week and lost no strength or weight in that time. My actual taper was 5 weeks 75,75,50,50,25 with testE and IGF-1. I actually gained 5lbs and 20lbs of strength doing so. I finished my taper with a SERM. Clomid for three weeks 150,100,50.

I know that it is not essential to run a serm but I figured it couldn’t hurt.
My point is that during the entire taper I never had mood/libido issues, I gained size and strength (due to the IGF) and kept it all.
Obviously my taper is not ideal due to the IGF use but I will use this style of PCT everytime from now on. [/quote]

At what dose did you run the IGF-1?

I read this on another board about the test taper and here is one of the responses:

Those of us who know the pharmacokinetics of long esters of testosterone in the body will know that tapering is pointless, simply because the substance tapers anyway. (E.q. 250 mg test E becomes 125 mg after 10.5 days, then after next 10.5 days it becomes 62.5 mg, then 31.25 mg etc - if that is not tapering i dont know what is.)

Not trying to be negative cause I really want to find out more about this Test taper. My PCT went horrible my first cycle and I felt like shit with very low libido making me and my woman fight a lot, so I need to find a better way

Cortes, I�??m certainly no vet, but the way Bushy explains it sums it up well. I�??m on a cycle now much like 2thepain was, so I�??m quite thrilled to see his results �?? though I wont use IGF-1.

I too will only use 4 weeks at 100mg and probably you should too. I mean going from test E to test E it makes sense IMO to keep it at 4 100mg weeks before the actual taper instead of 6 since there�??s no other forms of gear to clear.

He-Man, I havent seen a lot of feedback on P22’s taper, but ALL of it has been totally positive that’s why I’m gonna do it. If someone has done it and posted a negative experience with it I havent seen it (I dont read the board all the time so maybe it’s there!!).

See what I mean raiderUM, people that say it’s pointless have not done it. They go by theory.

You say you had horrible PCT, while all the guys I’ve seen posting their hands-on EXPERIENCE with this form of taper write stuff like “during the entire taper I never had mood/libido issues” like 2thepain above.

I dont think P22 is implying other forms of PCT dont work, just that his has been “pain free” so to speak. Fighting with your GF and having low libido for 3-4 weeks is not life threatening, but it can have serious consequences! If there’s a way that’s a tad longer but without those sides I’ll defenitely try it!

Schwartz

As Bushy pointed out, I am referring to other boards, MESO, Outlaw, SSB etc,etc. I love T-Nation, but other resourceful isalnds exist out there. By the way, I have read the old posts when they were new posts.

There are guys that actually used the taper methods in the 70’s and 80’s and much prefer today�??s traditional methods. Now I haven’t ran across any juicing endocrinologists just yet, but my anti-taper post had a response from a guy that absolutely knows his endocrinology, who’s counsel I trust and who backed up his position with data from the medical literature. He thinks I am crazy for even trying the taper…time will tell. Good luck to all.

[quote]Over40 wrote:
Schwartz

As Bushy pointed out, I am referring to other boards, MESO, Outlaw, SSB etc,etc. I love T-Nation, but other resourceful isalnds exist out there. By the way, I have read the old posts when they were new posts.

[/quote]My mistake. I tend to skim and post, so I probably missed this point. Sorry about that.[quote]

There are guys that actually used the taper methods in the 70’s and 80’s and much prefer today�??s traditional methods. Now I haven’t ran across any juicing endocrinologists just yet, but my anti-taper post had a response from a guy that absolutely knows his endocrinology, who’s counsel I trust and who backed up his position with data from the medical literature. He thinks I am crazy for even trying the taper…time will tell. Good luck to all.

[/quote]
I think Bushy explained well why the taper doesn’t start until 3-4 weeks at 100mg/wk. I’d imagine the old-school guys who tapered went from their cycle right into the taper with no leveling-off period.

These people who back up traditional PCT with literature don’t realize that this same literature also supports the test taper. Both protocols are based on the same principles. Unfortunately a lot of people wrongly assume that if the evidence supports traditional PCT then is must refute the test taper.

I would add to the reasoning behind the waiting period is to allow also for levels of binding globulin to drop.

Think of all the excess hormones in your body that have either been injected or aromatized, These all need to be out of the picture before you can recover.

drugs like nandrolone and trenbolone - even small traces of them in your body can prevent recover.

If you were doing HCG, the waiting period can allow time for your leydig cells to normalize.

During the waiting period all body physiology is allowed to slowly return to a normal state - with exeption of one link in the hpta.

Following this you only have to worry about one thing - and that is you pituitary begining to secrete LH and your leydig cells responding to this.

If you did the waiting period properly, you should have no problem with this.

Using anyother AAS based compounds during the waiting period with the exeption of masteron in my experience is counter-productive.

Anything that prevents the body from returing to natural state could very likely throw an axe in the entire protocol. For example, using oral proviron, probably not a good plan, better to include an injectable masteron instead, as it is easier to keep the AAS levels around the 100mg/week mark, and with no peaks that would cause a raise in SHBG, which you are trying to lower.

The waiting period is an extremely important part of the test taper. In fact the test taper will not work, without the waiting period, well you are more apt to recover following the waiting period with out the use of the taper period.

As for the use of peptides. This doesn’t effect the hpta at all and therefore can be a good way to maintain size following the taper.

Keep also in mind however that once you go off AAS if you are well above your genetic set-point, there is no way you will keep all your size. That is simply impossible, as your body’s natural test production will be unable to support your skeletal muscle, and since cortisol is no longer being suppressed, you will loose size.

If you are still below your set point, then you shouldn’t loose much size, just water retention.

“Using anyother AAS based compounds during the waiting period with the exeption of masteron in my experience is counter-productive.”

What about Primo? It doesnt act in an Anti-E fashion like Masteron but it always has been of the easiest gear to go off.

[quote]SwD wrote:
“Using anyother AAS based compounds during the waiting period with the exeption of masteron in my experience is counter-productive.”

What about Primo? It doesnt act in an Anti-E fashion like Masteron but it always has been of the easiest gear to go off. [/quote]

The problem with primo is it doesn’t support libido on a mg per mg basis that test and masteron do, so you will need more AAS to keep thing working, which will defeat the whole sitution.

the other thing as I said, it’s all about returing to homeostasis, so if you are using synthetic AAS compounds you are not doing so.

I recomend simply testosterone.

OK thanx