T Nation

P+C and P+F

Ok, so the majority of the articles and posts I’ve read recomend that for best results in a normal diet (well however normal a diet can be on T-Nation) one should consume P+C meals towards the early part of the day, and P+F meals towards the end of the day.

My question is why is it not better to eat P+C+F meals throughout the day as apposed to the aforementioned plan? Now I’m not being lazy, I looked through the nutrition articles and couldn’t find much reference to that.

If someone could either post the link or set me straight, that’d be awesome.

Thanks

-K

here’s the info you’re looking for, courtesy of Dr. Berardi and Chris Shugart:

The Essential Berardi
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=460027

From JB’s “Massive Eating II” article…

It’s well known in the research world that eating carbs and protein together also creates a synergistic insulin. By having a few meals per day that cause high blood levels of insulin, carbs, and amino acids (as long you don’t have chronic high blood levels of insulin all day long), the body tends to become very anabolic, taking up all those carbs and amino acids into the muscle cells for protein and glycogen synthesis. And since there’s no excess fat for the fat cells, fat gain is minimized.

Check out JB’s website
(Johnbarardi.com) Very good articles. You should also consider picking up his DVD, as he presents many of his nutritional concepts in detail.

ya know i had a question about this too. it seems to be that an overwhelming majority here at T-Nation believe that you should have P+C meals in the morning and P+F meals at night, yet Berardi’s articles preach the completely opposite approach. anyone willing to shed some light on this?

Berardi says to have them post work out. if it is a non work out day I think you have them early.

Is this method actually proven ?

Most people outside of T-mag/T-Nation seem to think that the whole P+C, P+F is alot of bs.

Proven how? Beyond the results that are acheived with it?

Well, proven as in proven scientifically.

There are others on other boards who seem to think the whole meal combination stuff isn’t really valid. Apparently is was tried before back in the 60s…

I have not looked at Massive Eating in a while but Normally he supports all his articles.

Well, there are references quoted, but no actual scientific studies done on Massive Eating, etc.

Most of the so-called results are case studies. This is NOT scientific.

Neither are testimonials…

However, a large randomized study is scientific, of course, this has not been done.

Lyle Mcdonald shoots down Berardi’s theories a fair bit, of course, no one ever mentions that on this website. There seem to be a whole bunch of followers. So much for this place being a “Think Tank”.

[quote]acelement wrote:
ya know i had a question about this too. it seems to be that an overwhelming majority here at T-Nation believe that you should have P+C meals in the morning and P+F meals at night, yet Berardi’s articles preach the completely opposite approach. anyone willing to shed some light on this?[/quote]

JB doesn’t preach the opposite. He suggests that you eat P+C meals with less than 5 grams fat and P+F meals with less than 10 grams fat. Carbs are better tolerated in the morning.

Also, if mass is your goal (as opposed to fat loss,) I am of the understanding that you should have the P+F meals as the first meals and P+C meals at the last meals.

I believe these theories/concepts have helped my training goals of losing some body fat. As a side note, natural body builder Tom Venuto also supports/practices the concept. Seems to work well for him.

Of course, the best thing to do is try it yourself for a few weeks consistantly and track your results. T-Nation is the most informative “Think Tank” on the 'net. The ideas are wide ranging and work for many. But, you do have to apply them yourself to gain possible benefit. If it doesn’t work for you, hey, you learned that it doesn’t…you can put it to rest and move on. Possibly, you will come back to it again in the future and have success.

[quote]marcus_aurelius wrote:
Well, there are references quoted, but no actual scientific studies done on Massive Eating, etc.

Most of the so-called results are case studies. This is NOT scientific.

Neither are testimonials…

However, a large randomized study is scientific, of course, this has not been done.

Lyle Mcdonald shoots down Berardi’s theories a fair bit, of course, no one ever mentions that on this website. There seem to be a whole bunch of followers. So much for this place being a “Think Tank”.[/quote]

What does Lyle suggest doing? Eating lots of fats and carbs at the same time? Or are you refering to carbs post work out and agree with the rest?

If you have an article of his in mind I would like to read it…

I believe Dr. B posts plenty of citations for his research. How the body processes different kinds of food at different times of the day is probably less well studied than how the body processes carbs during the post-workout cycle. There are reams of studies on that.

Your body is more naturally insulin-sensitive during early parts of your day. So, you want to get your carbs in there. During the later parts of the day, since you aren’t getting your carbs in, you want to get your fats in.

Those are the general rules, which are superceded by the post-workout window, at which time you should be getting lots of carbs.

In no case do you want to be getting fats or carbs without having protein. I believe he provides sound scientific analysis for why you want protein with your carbs and fats. I believe he also provides sound scientific analysis for why you don’t want lots of carbs and fats at the same time.

Now, for this site being biased, two things. First, if you bother, you will find a wide variety of opinions here. In fact, there was even a recent article posted with a point/counter-point argument between Berardi and another Dr. with a differing view on how much protein is healthy. They don’t post dissenting opinions? Hmmm… maybe I mis-read that article then.

Second, most of the people follow Berardi’s concepts because they work for them. He has provided reasonable scientific analysis, they have tried his ideas, and the ideas have worked. If they didn’t work, there are enough smart people and critical thinkers here that his ideas wouldn’t receive support for very long.

Well, there are whole threads at his site. But just an as example, I’ve cut some of the stuff posted :

Lyle, you might be interested in this. (Warning, long post)

Berardi’s fan: (talking about eggs)…but make sure that you do not combine them with high carb intake in the same meal or you’ll sure be storing away fats.

Lyle’s fan: This is not true. You store fat when calories in > calories out. The idea of food combining doesnt matter in the grand scheme of things.

Berardi’s fan: Technically speaking yes, but if you know how to manipulate your caloric intake by ingesting the right foods at the right time, excess calories does not ALWAYS equate fat gain but muscle hypertrophy.

He is correct that when you ingest carb, you should not also ingest fat at the same time. The body will store the fat as adipose tissues.

Lyle’s fan: Please show me how the body will store the fat everytime you eat carbs and fat together. Because everyone is going to get fat.

Let me guess, from Berardi??

Berardi’s fan: Take a look around you. Do let me know if you think the percentage of lean individuals (note: i say lean here, not fat or skinny) is high.

Berardi’s fan: Insulin is responsible for shuttling nutrients into the body, but it does not discriminate between the good (glycogen and protein) and the bad (fats).

“Insulin is a storage hormone produced by the pancreas. Insulin shuttles nutrients such as carbohydrates, fats and amino acids (derived from proteins) into cells. The main function of insulin is to maintain homoestasis of circulatory glucose and intracellular glycogen storage. It also aids in fat storage” quoted directly from Chemical Muscle Enhancement by Author L. Rea.

When you take sufficient carbs and fats together, you get both an increase in insulin as well as plasma fatty acid levels. And if you understood what i have said so far, you will understand why simultaneous consumption of sufficient amounts and carbs and fats can lead to increased fat storage. (by sufficient carbs i mean sufficient qty to illicit a marked increase in serum insulin, similarly, sufficient fats means sufficient qty to result in a marked increase in fatty acids levels)

Obviously not “everyone” is going to get fat, since we are all different, and we all react differently to dietary changes. Those who are highly insulin sensitive will release lesser insulin for the same amount of carbs compared to a insulin-resistant subject, and the fat-storing abilitites of the combination of fats and carbs will be reduced.

The problem becomes insignificant when the consumption of carbs or fats is reduced to below 5g in the presence of significant quantity of the other.

John M Berardi is a scientist and PhD candidate in the area of Exercise and Nutritional Biochemistry at the University of Western Ontario, Canada. He is also one of the pioneer for the myraid of post workout formulas available on the market today. He also has his own website and contributes frequently to t-mag. What issues do you have about taking nutritional advice from him??

Berardi’s fan: I think i have covered your point in my previous post that such effects will not apply to the same degree across the board for everyone.

The “calories intake < calories expended will lead to fat loss” is oversimplified. I would bet a thousand bucks that an indivudual who consumes an equivalence his caloric requirement will definitely store fat if most of the calories comes from sugar and fats.

Let’s consider a hypothetical individual who consumes slightly above his caloric intake but consumes the right type of food at the right time in the right combination. I would also put a thousand bucks on him that he will not gain a single ounce of fat. He may in fact lean out.

The calorie in calorie out theory cannot be used without considering the effects of insulin changes in the body.

Lyle’s fan: Berardi’s articles are good (i like them too) but the one about food combining (cant remember title) is not. I know what you talking about regarding insulin. BTW, i wasnt the one who pointed out the mistakes behind his premise. Lyle was the one:

"The whole don’t eat protein + fat or don’t eat carbs + whatever is a bunch of bullshit within this context (the usual argument, and the original question, had to do with separating it out across meals and fat gain).

The whole reasoning behind don’t eat carbs + fat is based on a simplistic and outmoded model of fat cell metabolism.

The basic reasoning, that you gave was, insulin = storage hormone + dietary fat = bodyfat

Problems

  1. It takes only tiny amounts of insulin to affect fat cell metabolism.

  2. Protein more than sufficiently raises insulin this much so protein + fat works just as well to both inhibit fat cell mobilization and stimulate storage of nutrients.

  3. Insulin is important to increase LPL activity. Lpl was thought to be rate limiting for fat storage but this is not the case. All LPL does is release fatty acids from chylomicrons.

  4. Acylation stimulation protein (ASP) is the real player in triglyceride synthesis in the fat cell. It is stimulated by the mere presence of chylomicrons in the bloodstream and is insulin independent. So whether you eat your fat with carbs protein or by itself, the dietary fat is going to get stored. Separating it out from carbs isn’t going to make a shit’s worth of difference.

Whether you end up gaining or losing fat will depend on 24 hour fat balance (oxidation - intake) which will essentially be 24 hour calorie balance.

Of course, food combining nonsense will keep you leaner in the sense that, by setting up rules that only allow you to eat fat at every other meal, you’ll probably end up eating less fat total over the day…

Food combining in some form or another has been around for decades. The usual craptacular arguments have to do with carbs and protein not being able to be digested together. Some nonsense about pH is usually bandied about.

The ‘new’ sciency sounding arguments revolve around insulin and fat storage which is based on a 5-10 year out of date model of fat cell metabolism. It ignores some very concepts about fat cell metabolism.

The body is smarter than all of this crap: we evolved on a mixed diets and our bodies aren’t going to waste calories through inefficient digestion or waste fat for storage just because you didn’t eat it with carbs. That would have been stupid during our evolution. Hence we have many mechanisms (such as insulin independent ASP) to make sure that any excess calories get stored for later use."

I was like you, thinking that its not so simple as “calories in > calories out” but it still comes down to that.

"It’s the net effect, storage vs. oxidation that affects whether you gain or lose fat.

In a caloric deficit (no matter what the macronutrient intake), you spend more time in the fasting (post-prandial) state over a 24 hour period. That includes between meals (b/c they are smaller) and while you’re sleeping.

In a calorie surplus (no matter what the macronutrient intake), you spend less time in the fasting state over a 24 hour period.

This is also why, generally speaking, shuffling around fats and carbs has no real impact on things, at least not within an identical calorie intake. As you eat more carbs, you lower fat intake so even though you burn less fat, the difference may be identical to a diet where you’re eating less carbs and more fat.

That is, what matters at the end of the day is fat balance (fat oxidation - fat intake). Under most circumstances, fat balance will be identical to calorie balance. A positive calorie balance will turn up as a postive fat balance (fat gained) and vice versa.

Raising the seminal question: why bother with one diet vs. another?

Becuase there are other factors including adherence, maintaining training intensity, food preferences and others that go into a diet. If you can’t stick to a high-carb/low-fat diet (b/c you’re hungry or whatever), it doesn’t matter if it should generate the same fat loss at a given calorie level: if you eat more, you’ll lose less fat.

Lyle"

Berardi’s fan: I drew reference from an expert. You also drew reference from one. Both unfortunately have different take. Both have sufficient theory to support their arguements.
Does that make me wrong? Does that make you wrong? Go figure.

While studies done on rats with deficient LPL compared to normal rats, both showed the same degree of adipose storage. It was established that there could be an alternative method of storing fats in LPL deficient subjects. It did not show that LPL was not the determining factor in adipose storage, did it?

And while it is found that LPL appears to act as only one member of a series of metabolic steps which are regulated in a highly coordinated manner to induce fat storage, the writers of the same study also concluded that fat storage involves regulation of the pathway of fatty acid uptake and esterification, and appears to be regulated by a number of factors including insulin.

"Dietary fish oil increases lipid mobilization but does not decrease lipid storage-related enzyme activities in adipose tissue of insulin-resistant, sucrose-fed rats.

Adipocytes were isolated from rats fed for 3 wk a diet containing 57.5 g/100 g sucrose and 14 g/100 g lipids as either fish oil (SF) or a mixture of standard oils (SC); there was also a reference group ®. The stimulation of lipolysis was greater in adipocytes isolated from SF-fed rats than in those from SC-fed rats. Lipoprotein lipase (LPL) activity was 2.2-fold higher in the adipose tissues but not in the muscle in rats fed the SF diet than in those fed the SC diet"
edited for length

[quote]marcus_aurelius wrote:
Well, proven as in proven scientifically.

There are others on other boards who seem to think the whole meal combination stuff isn’t really valid. Apparently is was tried before back in the 60s…[/quote]

i would recommend the following to anyone who isn’t sure what to make of the general dietary guidelines provided by T-Nation: for six weeks be diligent about training, sleeping and combining/timing your macronutrient intake. be organized and disciplined. since you’re eating clean, you should eat a lot. seriously, eat a lot. monitor your results. i suspect you will increase lean mass while also decreasing bodyfat, like many others here have.

The point is, don’t get caught up in the latest study which contradicted a previous study which concluded that such and such and so on and so on – personal results are all that matters.

How does lyle’s fan explain the results that Berardi is able to obtain with his clients? From the looks of what they say its just a matter of, eat excess and grow, eat less and shrink. That doesn’t explain how he can get clients to gain large amounts of lbm and drop fat at the same time.

Do you have anything where Lyle does the talking?

Yeah, there is tonnes of info on his site about this.

I can’t post the name, but there are several threads on Lyle’s site where he debunks Berardi’s theories.

Here, you can find threads by using google with search terms:

“Fat Storing without Insulin” Lyle

Well think about it this way: Assume for a moment we don’t eat “too much” so it turns to fat anyway:

Insulin causes food to get stored.

Carbs raise insulin levels. Combining other food with carbs raises insulin even more.

Do you want fat to get stored? If so, eat more fat with your carbs.

If not, eat protein with your carbs.

That sums it up for all us non scientific folk.

[quote]chrisb71 wrote:
Well think about it this way: Assume for a moment we don’t eat “too much” so it turns to fat anyway:

Insulin causes food to get stored.

Carbs raise insulin levels. Combining other food with carbs raises insulin even more.

Do you want fat to get stored? If so, eat more fat with your carbs.

If not, eat protein with your carbs.

That sums it up for all us non scientific folk.[/quote]

Right, but the whole point is that there are other storage mechanisms besides just insulin.

Best