T Nation

P-22 Test Tapering Thread

I’ve been trying to put down what the mechanism of action could be for the taper. The following is just me brainbarfing on the subject:

Let T = current testosterone level in the system
Let T0 = natural testosterone level
Let A = total exogenous androgens in the system

Here’s the real simplistic equation: T = [Limit(T0 - A)] where the Limit is that T is 0 if the quantity (T0 - A) is < 0. Yeah, it is more complicated than this, but I’m just going to simplify on this 1st approximation.

Over time, as the level of A approaches T0, there will be a point where the body begins to manufacture T again due to the value of (T0 - A) becoming positive.

As A tapers over time, this tapering will result in the proportional “regain” of T in the parent system once the value of T0 - A becomes positive again. The realistic lag in the parent system’s ability to “track” with the tapering level of the exogenous testosterone is what causes that shitty feeling of low androgen levels. This is why the taper approach makes sure you start off at the T0 level (approximately 100 mg/week) at the beginning of PCT. The very very slow tapering from this point is to try to compensate for the body’s real “lag”.

I think the above works if A consists mostly of exogenous testosterone. When A consists of other androgens besides testosterone, the picture becomes a little more hazy.

Sorry if all this isn’t making sense or is hard to follow.

alright copying and pasting from another thread you were at this is my ?

wow thank god I found this, I just started a cycle a few days ago. And pct is of absolute most importance to me. I’ve been reading pct protocol for years, and what P22 says really does sound like a good idea. I thought I had broken down all this pct protocol in to a perfect science. But now I won’t be using HCG during the cycle, which I was skeptical about, along with a lot of other stuff.

? for P22, well what I’m wondering now is, how do they know the testes are functioning again when you still have exogenous test in your system. A blood test will show that you have a certain amount in your system. So how can you tell what your endogenous test is at? or even FSH and LH for that matter?

[quote]jjay wrote:
In yo face nurse boy !!![/quote]

P22 has been one of the most helpful guys on here for a looooong time. Show the guy some respect at least. Is there any reason for a post like this? If you don’t agree with the guy, that’s fine. But offer an alternative or scientific objection, or just keep your pie hole shut.

BWS

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Thanks for putting this up P22, and for taking your time and effort to look out for fellow juicers.

I’m not saying I agree with you 100%, but I certainly don’t see the sense in the ‘traditional’ approach of stopping cold turkey. Tapering has a lot of appeal and I’m glad that some are already reporting great results.

It seems likely to me that there will never be a ‘one size fits all’ recovery from steroid cycling, although I suspect that if such a thing did exist, it would have components from both ‘camps’, ie the slow and gradual withdrawing of steroid hormones, coupled with some other mild/side-effect free compound to facilitate HPTA recovery.

Just my opinion though.

bushy[/quote]

Thanks for the comment Bushy, however you say this right now having not tried the protocol. Try it first, I am pretty sure you will find it fits just right :)!

Keep in mind during this time you could be using whatever exotic compounds it is you like to use that doesn’t effect your hpta to your hearts content:). Then you only have 6 weeks to wait untill you can hit up another high dose bulker, and get some good AAS assited gains… You’ve seen my pics bro… you know I know what I’m talking about:)

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
I also wonder why T-Nation doesn’t hire you as well or at least ask you to write an article or two for the masses. Not only is it quite evident that you are quite knowledgeable in this field, you are also one who has direct experience with the information you write.

When I finally do embark on another traditional cycle (I’m still in the middle of some other exotic protocols now, and don’t want to mess up my evaluation process) I plan on using the tapering protocol for PCT. I just makes logical sense to me and appeals to my understanding and formal professional training of how “systems”, especially feedback control systems, work. [/quote]

Exactly! you got it brother! Feedback systems! that is the key work here. The body works both ways! if you bring it back down into range where it can operate, and you haven’t messed with the other cogs and levers in the system (I’m sure you know what I mean) The feed back system will restart - That is what it was designed to do - it’s just simple human physiology!

[quote]Anthony Roberts wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
Studies have actually proved this, where using 50mg of test enanthate on a weekly basis in normal men only lowered FSH and LH secretion by 50%

So even when you are at 50mgs of test/ week, you’re not allowing full recovery. We can agree that when you have 50mgs of test injected, you get to keep half of your LH and FSH, right? Ok…soooo…

From skimming this post, there is no clear evidence presented which shows that when you are already 100% suppressed, you’ll even begin to recover while you are using this dose.

Look at it this way (rewording of what’s been said by P22):

50mgs of testosterone will allow you to keep 50% of your LH and FSH levels.
Right? Lets agree that his study strongly suggests the validity of that statement.

Ok, now lets apply that to a taper:

Since you are starting fully suppressed and therefore have no LH or FSH to speak of, you can keep your 50% of it by using 50mgs of Test. 50% of nothing is still nothing. 50% recovery of nothing is still nothing. Thus HPTA recovery will probably be nothing.

Thinking otherwise is like having a bank account with no money in it, and trying to earn interest! Yeah, just because the bank promises 4% interest, doesn’t mean you get it if there’s no money to start with in your account.

As you’re tapering down, by his admission, you are fully suppressed until you reach the 50mg/week dose, at which point you retain 50% of your LH and FSH. Which in this case is nothing. You’ve kept 50% of the HPTA you started with, as per the study. You’ve kept nothing, also. Remember, the 50mgs doesn’t RAISE your test to 50% of baseline…it LOWERS them by 50%. And you already have nothing in that bank.

In addition, why would this taper be more worthwhile than letting the natural half-life of TE just taper itself down?

Well researched, and a good effort- but invalid. The leap from “50mgs of TE lowers LH/FSH to 50%” to “50 mgs of TE will increase your LH/FSH by 50%” is being attempted here.

But it doesn’t even matter, because a Billion percent of nothing is still nothing…and even if you can keep 50% of your HPTA running while shooting 50mgs of TE…that’s not going to help you at all, because 50% of your non-functioning HPTA- is still zero.

If anyone is interested, this protocol, dose for dose and week for week- is the exact one Duchaine outlined in the original “Underground Steroid Handbook.”[/quote]

I’m sorry, but I never ever read any of those books you talk about. The only influence I have had was Cy, and my own knowlege of physiology, and experience using AAS.

The problem with all your arguments is that you just focus on the facts that were found. You need to apply this to human physiology, and feedback loops. It seems the difference we have is you think there is a clear on/ off switch, and I think the swich is a dimmer switch, where as proved in the research, varrying degrees of administration of test Enanthate causes varrying degrees of suppression. Now you think this only works one way? I dissagree, the negative feedback loops work both ways - In natural states: Too much T = lots of aromatization to E = less secretion of FSH/LH and less Testosterone, when blood levels of T begin lowering less aromatization occurs, and less E = more FSH/LH is secreted causing more T to be secreted. The Idea of tapering is to gradually allow the body to normalize and lower it back into a state where the feedback loop is operable.

And btw you got it wrong. Research shows no suppression whatsoever using Clomiphene at 100mg/ week concurently with 100mg/ week of test E. The researchers concluded that it was estrogen antagonism that was responsible for this, so therefore the use of any antiestrogen drug that lowers blood E levels below levels that are suppressive to the hypothalmus would also work.

as for lag time - That is why the taper is so long and gradual

This is very interesting, where can I read more about this, Don’t if I missed you saying it?

You answered my question at first sorry for not reading it all.

How soon can you be back to full endogenous test levels after coming off the 50 mg? Quicker than say 8 weeks is what it has taken me in the past? And the 50 mg your supplementing, I wonder what endogenous test is at also. Along with, is this enough to retain gains while on the taper from your experience?

[quote]2RIIPPED wrote:
This is very interesting, where can I read more about this, Don’t if I missed you saying it?

You answered my question at first sorry for not reading it all.

How soon can you be back to full endogenous test levels after coming off the 50 mg? Quicker than say 8 weeks is what it has taken me in the past? And the 50 mg your supplementing, I wonder what endogenous test is at also. Along with, is this enough to retain gains while on the taper from your experience?[/quote]

O.k to answer your questions, First off, to comfirm that recovery of the testicular axis is actually occuring, the most definitive tests would be weekly increases in FSH/ LH levels. Now this isn’t a test you could probably get your insurance company to pay for, and I am not sure how many physicians would be willing to order this blood work, but that is most likely the gold standard. Next would possibly be increases in sperm counts. As FSH and LH increase, and endogenous testosterone production increases, this should coincide with increase in sperm count, however it is not a definitive test, as by the research presented, not all sperm counts were equally effected by the same amount of weekly test E dose.

You could however look for the physical evidence which is something measurable at home :slight_smile: increase in size, temperature, of the testes. It is my experience and that of others that the initial increases are accompanied with soreness.

The other measure you could do would be to track seminal volume and weight.

This sounds Gross but it would probably work: Measure your ejaculate, weekly at the same time - put it in a dixie cup and measure weight on a scale and volume.

As LH/FSH increased, sperm counts should coinicide, and more sperm = more ejaculate volume. Gross I know, but thats the most imperical home test I can think of.

Now of course if you were going to do this your anti-E would have to be either held at a constant dose or stopped, as you only want to have one variable and that is the diminishing administration of exogenous testosterone.

My opinion is that the waiting period while other non testosterone AAS clear your system should be at least 4-6 weeks depending on the esters that were used. If it was just orals you could proabably start your taper imediately.
Fast acting injectables like Tren Acetate, I would still do at least a 3 week waiting period, to ensure all metabolites had sufficiently cleared. It is my feeling that the waiting period is good, as it allows your body to re-balance itself at near hrt/ normal physiological levels of testosterone. Bear in mind that the rearch found absolutely no side effects at these doses, other than a little acne, so being on this amout of test for longer isn’t going to negatively impact your health, and if anything is more of a plus, as it is giving your body longer time to adapt.

As for when your hpta kicks in, the research clearly states that it is possible for the hpta to be uninhibited using 100mg of Test E, along with 100mg daily of clomid (and I deduct you could use any other anti E as the suppresion was shown to be caused by estrogen).
So from 100mgmg of test E in your body down to 0 mg, it is proved that your hpta can be uninhibited, the further you taper, the less anti E is needed, as less E is created via aromatization, so you can taper your antiE as I said before concurently.
At 25mg per week with no anti E used the research clearly shows absolutely no inhibition of the hpta.

Personally I favor a 6 week taper. During these six weeks, you should never fall below natural test levels, so you can expect to feel like you would at normal physiological levels of testosterone - no crash! as the hpta picks up the slack of test production as you lower your weekly dose.

The last point, one that I have said before, is you can count the entire taper as being ‘off cycle’ as you are in normal physiologic levels of testosterone for the entire taper, and at the 100 and 50mg marks, actually high normal range. This is also noted in the research cited.

[quote]jjay wrote:
In yo face nurse boy !!![/quote]

Congradulations! you’ve just been nominated for the most stupidest poster on this site.

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:

I think the above works if A consists mostly of exogenous testosterone. When A consists of other androgens besides testosterone, the picture becomes a little more hazy.

Sorry if all this isn’t making sense or is hard to follow. [/quote]

It all made perfect sence, and You said it! you can’t mix other steroids into the picture. That is what gave tapering a bad rap in the first place, because guys were trying to taper off deca. Well of course that doesn’t work!

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:

The problem with all your arguments is that you just focus on the facts that were found.
[/quote]

Well I’m glad that you’ve managed to find an alternative to focusing on the facts.

[quote]Big Willie Style wrote:
jjay wrote:
In yo face nurse boy !!!

P22 has been one of the most helpful guys on here for a looooong time. Show the guy some respect at least. Is there any reason for a post like this? If you don’t agree with the guy, that’s fine. But offer an alternative or scientific objection, or just keep your pie hole shut.

BWS
[/quote]

Lighten up buddy , Its from A movie !
I thought Eric roberts shut the idea down . I would like to here the rebutal from p#22

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
jjay wrote:
In yo face nurse boy !!!

Congradulations! you’ve just been nominated for the most stupidest poster on this site.[/quote]

I think It’s most stupid post P#22 R.N .
Not alot of men in your profession are there P .

[quote]jjay wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
jjay wrote:
In yo face nurse boy !!!

Congradulations! you’ve just been nominated for the most stupidest poster on this site.

I think It’s most stupid post P#22 R.N .
Not alot of men in your profession are there P . [/quote]

And your posts, jjay, are the most erudite and informative one line bombshells of advice. I wait in anticipation of what intelligent words will be written by you in the future.

Troll.

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

[quote]buffd_samurai wrote:
jjay wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
jjay wrote:
In yo face nurse boy !!!

Congradulations! you’ve just been nominated for the most stupidest poster on this site.

I think It’s most stupid post P#22 R.N .
Not alot of men in your profession are there P .

And your posts, jjay, are the most erudite and informative one line bombshells of advice. I wait in anticipation of what intelligent words will be written by you in the future.

Troll.
[/quote]

Don’t be to hard on me I am here to learn not teach. As far as the digs go . Well,I know there stupid but it amuses me and I have nothing better to do . Plus I am only joking .

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
jjay wrote:

Not alot of men in your profession are there P .

Weak…[/quote]

Well, It’s from the movie .

[quote]Prisoner#22 wrote:
to comfirm that recovery of the testicular axis is actually occuring, the most definitive tests would be weekly increases in FSH/ LH levels. Now this isn’t a test you could probably get your insurance company to pay for, and I am not sure how many physicians would be willing to order this blood work, but that is most likely the gold standard.
[/quote]

Now a fantastic way to prove your theory would be to show your bloodwork for your next cycle and PCT. Surely being a health professional would help in this respect.

Tone

[quote]jjay wrote:

I thought Eric roberts shut the idea down . I would like to here the rebutal from p#22 [/quote]

Isn’t Eric Roberts the guy from “The Best of the Best”?

[quote]TONEdef wrote:
Prisoner#22 wrote:
to comfirm that recovery of the testicular axis is actually occuring, the most definitive tests would be weekly increases in FSH/ LH levels. Now this isn’t a test you could probably get your insurance company to pay for, and I am not sure how many physicians would be willing to order this blood work, but that is most likely the gold standard.

Now a fantastic way to prove your theory would be to show your bloodwork for your next cycle and PCT. Surely being a health professional would help in this respect.

Tone[/quote]

yeah, that would be a good idea. I couldn’t do it at where I work though, but maybe I’ll be able to convince a doc at the clinic I go to to run the tests. We’ll see :).

I start my next off period in mid august - six week waiting period, then taper down from mid Sept to November.