By the way though there was a period of my life (around 18) in which I’d train cycling for 3 h half in the morning, then workout for 50 mins in the early afternoon, then go out play soccer with my friends for 1h 30, then go out in the night, then repeat for approx 3 months - my performance in the sports was kinda low but I didn’t feel “bad”.
overtraining…any amount of work over and above that which your body, provided adequate rest and nutrients, cannot respond to and gain from…How is that?
It may be nearly impossible and highly personal to find that sweet spot, that perfect volume and enough frequency to always have everything growing and strengthening. That’s where the fun is though.
I firmly believe that some people train a lot, whether it be too much or just enough, because they love it.
Makes me wonder if someone’s training would be more productive if they absolutely hated it, but were more committed.
[quote]Jason B wrote:
I seem to be much in the minority around here when it comes to this, but I’d love to see more opinions.
So…Overtraining…Myth or Reality…and why…without quoting your favorite author, please use your own brain to form your answer…
I have stated that I do not belive in it. I feel it is a myth. No matter how hard I have ever pushed my body it has always adapted and continued working. I have read about Jerry Rice’s offseason training routines and if there was ever a man who was overtraining he would be one.
Why is weightlifting any different than running, or skating, or biking? Shouldn’t overtraining be overtraining? Lance Armstrong training for the Tour de France…wow, looking at those workouts he should never have won a race, he should have needed months off to not feel so overtrained, yet he kept winning and improving.
So give me your 2 cents…I am a big boy, I can take it…
[/quote]
I think the real difference is intensity. Strength coaches define 100% intensity to be your one rep max. So a workout that consists of sets of 5 with 85% one rep max is technically more intense than sets of 10 with 65% of rep max.
By their definition, the greater the load, the more intense the training session.
Compare the amount of leg strength it takes to squat a large amount of weight compared to pedaling a bicycle.
Cycling is an endurance sport. The actual intensity of running or cycling is much much lower.
That is why you can’t realistically compare the volumes of both workouts.
[quote]lifter85 wrote:
you are speaking wrongly about that. what i mean is, of course it’s not good to max out every day, just like it’s not good to race all out every day. my dad once said “if you wana get faster at the mile, why not just run a mile all out every day?” that kind of maxing ISN’T good every day like you speak of, yes, but we’re not talking about maxing out every day.
What about lifting 2-3 reps short of your rep that you’re aiming for and do it more frequently? By this I mean if you want 10 reps, go for your 13-14 rep max maybe, and if 5 reps, go for your 7-8 rep max. This is what all distance athletes do except for their speed workouts, which are only 1-2 workouts a week in a total of about 13-14 workouts in a week.
[/quote]
The point is that overtraining DOES exist. As you’ve pointed out though, there are methods of managing fatigue in order to avoid it.
As Phill and others have pointed out, actual overtraining is a difficult state to reach and not tremendously common, whereas overreaching/overextension is much more common.
The difference is that with overreaching/overextension, the athlete will positively rebound after proper rest whereas with strict overtraining the athlete will have regressed by the time they have recovered fully. It’s very difficult to become overtrained unless one is following a program that is too difficult without being willing to deviate despite feeling like crap for an extended period.
The other issue I wanted to comment on was the difference between overtraining from endurance and weight training causes. Much of the overtraining that is seen in endurance events comes from the high intensity work mixed in with the longer distance work. Training above lactate threshold in particular can be quite taxing.
With endurance training even more than weight training the gradualist approach to increasing volume and/or intensity work is absolutely critical to staying on the right side of the fatigue line.
Jason,
I have been powerlifting for over 25 years and over-training is a very real thing. It has more to do with the CNS then just muscles adapting, when the CNS gets burned out it is all over- sleep problems, fatigue, injury, and depression.
When one of the strongest men in the world, Chad Aichs tells me he’s over-trained and takes two weeks off and comes back and PR’s, that is all the proof I need.
I have been over-training for most of my 25 years, if I had only learned to back it off once in while I would have missed out on surgey’s, pain and disappointment. Now that I’m wiser I listen to my body and I take time off when I don’t feel well. As the great Ed Coan would say "some days it is better to just stay in bed.
George
I believe it is very real, however it’s also dependant on other factors. Lifestyle and nutrition are related to overtraining.
Many overtrain when proper nutrition would prevent it.
[quote]powerhouse reno wrote:
Jason,
I have been powerlifting for over 25 years and over-training is a very real thing. It has more to do with the CNS then just muscles adapting, when the CNS gets burned out it is all over- sleep problems, fatigue, injury, and depression.
George [/quote]
Fully agreed.
Overtraining does indeed exist, although I tend to think (as many others do) that it can be staved off a little longer by proper rest and nutrition.
But it will catch up with you, one day.
Hmm
Overtraining is a very real concept that does indeed occur. However OT is a chronic state whereas O.R is an acute state.
Ot syndromes occur as a result of stress. The CNS and endocrine system inextricably are linked. The body respomds to physical, envronmental and psychological stressors - it doesnt differentiate. Any changes in the CNS and endocrine systems affect physical performance. OT syndromes are therefore linked to disturbances of endocrine fucntion.
It is my opinion that overtraining in athletics is still very miunderstood however. As athletes/ trainers we shouldnt avoid stress or stressors. Without these we do not adapt therefore we should not avoid placing appropriate physcial and mental stresses on the body for fear of overtraining.
Careful attention to physical and psychological markers is essential to longevity. Appropriate recovery strategies and rest periods are also warranted.
Volume and Intensity are linked and should be waved. Over-reaching should in fact be a part of your training. As someone previously pointed out planned periods of over-reaching coupled with appropriate periods of reduced stress incur supercompensation adaptations - similar (in theory) to carb depletion and loading concepts.
High frequency training does work, it is evidenced pretty much everywhere in athletics. However it would be impossible to train with maximal volume and intensity for any period of time. The organisation and management of fatigue is paramount to long-term success in any athletic endeavour IMO.
I am taking an extreme position on this mostly to make a point. There just has been a rash of discussion on this board about overtraining lately because someone has been working out an hour a day, 4 days a week, and has a rough two weeks where diet and sleep are not optimal and all of the sudden feel they are in an overtrained state.
It just isn’t realistic. Do I believe in over reaching and rebouunding after a little rest, yes. I just really feel that very few people actually reach a point of true overtraining and that it is way too misused in order to be lazy.
[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:
I believe that overtraining exists. But 90% of trainees are not even close to overtraining. For the MOST part, it is not overtraining, it is being undernourished. [/quote]
Agreed. Great post.
[quote]That One Guy wrote:
whatever i can’t argue this anymore. man i am not going to be able to sleep tonight with this argument in my mind. it is like that author once said(dont know the name)
“Good conversation can be as stimulating as a cup of coffee,and just as hard to sleep after.”[/quote]
I was right there with you. LOL
I hope you don’t think you are overtrained now because you had a crappy night sleep…j/k LOL
[quote]Phill wrote:
Overtrainming = VERY real but RARE IMO and MUCH harder to get to then ppl think.
I do agree it has gone to far to the point of being cructh for working hard and adapting to the work. BVUT yes I can say I did over train it was a mix of diet and training and Work.
I was 215 lbs went on a very very strict low cal (2000 or less) a day diet nearly zero fat, went from not doing cardio to jogging twice a day EVERY DAY, lifting full body, twice a day 3 -4 times a week for 45-60 minutes,. working full time hard labor (tire shop) 6 days a week.
Lets just say that was over kill i dropped VERY fats to 165 on my frame thats LOW my body quit havning the ability to even heat itself, Im still to this day and for life will be paying for it with health probs etc.
So yes its real but its a Mix of drastic diet and massive amounts of over work coupled with life stressors.
Yes real, but over played as an excuse
Phill [/quote]
Phill, this is really what I am trying to get to here, but kind of like a negotiation you have to push the envelope by overasking in order to get people to get where you want. Nicely stated post!
[quote]AlphaDragon wrote:
powerhouse reno wrote:
Jason,
I have been powerlifting for over 25 years and over-training is a very real thing. It has more to do with the CNS then just muscles adapting, when the CNS gets burned out it is all over- sleep problems, fatigue, injury, and depression.
George
Fully agreed.
Overtraining does indeed exist, although I tend to think (as many others do) that it can be staved off a little longer by proper rest and nutrition.
But it will catch up with you, one day.[/quote]
I… I… I can’t believe it. A real thread with a discussion about a training topic that has not been derailed by name calling or trolling! Ye gods be praised!
I am with AD and powerhouse. I think it is a very real thing and one I know I have had to manage more carefully when I got past 30. I think there are a lot of people out there who are undernourished, but I know I have personally hit points of overtraining.
However, for me it was not just the idea of purely going to the gym too much by itself. I find that my work schedule and (more importantly) stress levels are the biggest factor.
I tend to be a little more keyed-up than I need to be or should be and I think that has had a pretty negative effect on my training at times. I think if you are stressed a lot of the time, your CNS is just flat out going to suffer along with it. I know mine has.
I can usually find a decent correlation in my training between lack of motivation and lack of strength gains with times where I am way too stressed out for my own good (which also affects my sleep… hence my training).
This is an interesting topic. I belive people can overtrain, but as others have said I think it’s pretty rare. I use myself as a reference a lot when I answer posts and I can say that I delayed gains from undertraining and undereating- never overtraining.
I’ve read very interesting articles written for “hardgainers” and some of those call for unbelievably low volume of work because they figure people are overtrained, but it would not work for me.
[quote]Kuz wrote:
AlphaDragon wrote:
powerhouse reno wrote:
Jason,
I have been powerlifting for over 25 years and over-training is a very real thing. It has more to do with the CNS then just muscles adapting, when the CNS gets burned out it is all over- sleep problems, fatigue, injury, and depression.
George
Fully agreed.
Overtraining does indeed exist, although I tend to think (as many others do) that it can be staved off a little longer by proper rest and nutrition.
But it will catch up with you, one day.
I… I… I can’t believe it. A real thread with a discussion about a training topic that has not been derailed by name calling or trolling! Ye gods be praised![/quote]
Uh-oh…I feel it coming on now.
Jerk!
Better?? =P
Me as well. It seems, that while I’m not old (persay) at 34, I can fully appreciate what you said in the quote above. The body changes as we mature. It would be interesting if an “old timer” could chime in to say how their body reacts in regards to overtraining prevention.
You read my mind and put it better than I could have. Good stuff.
I am so with you on this one.
Then the stress affects the training, which in turn affects the stress (“My workouts have sucked lately,” etc), and on and on.
A vicious cycle, no?
[quote]powerhouse reno wrote:
Jason,
I have been powerlifting for over 25 years and over-training is a very real thing. It has more to do with the CNS then just muscles adapting, when the CNS gets burned out it is all over- sleep problems, fatigue, injury, and depression.
When one of the strongest men in the world, Chad Aichs tells me he’s over-trained and takes two weeks off and comes back and PR’s, that is all the proof I need.
I have been over-training for most of my 25 years, if I had only learned to back it off once in while I would have missed out on surgey’s, pain and disappointment. Now that I’m wiser I listen to my body and I take time off when I don’t feel well. As the great Ed Coan would say "some days it is better to just stay in bed.
George [/quote]
George…
I agree…once you’ve been training long enough you’ll learn to listen to your body. When it comes to overtraining it is real…even with proper diet and rest. The body can only take so much…and it will tell you when to back off. Those little nicks and dings in the shoulders, knees, extended muscle soreness could be a sign of some rest is needed.
[quote]Jason B wrote:
That One Guy wrote:
whatever i can’t argue this anymore. man i am not going to be able to sleep tonight with this argument in my mind. it is like that author once said(dont know the name)
“Good conversation can be as stimulating as a cup of coffee,and just as hard to sleep after.”
I was right there with you. LOL
I hope you don’t think you are overtrained now because you had a crappy night sleep…j/k LOL
[/quote]
Lol i actually thought for a split second when i was going to bed that u were going to read my post and send a msg like this. joking of course but i knew.
Look at the size and strength of endurance athletes
[quote]Jason B wrote:
TrainerinDC wrote:
I believe that overtraining exists. But 90% of trainees are not even close to overtraining. For the MOST part, it is not overtraining, it is being undernourished.
Agreed. Great post.
[/quote]
Exactly.
Overtraining does exist, depends on many factors, and will vary from person to person.
If I’m paralyzed and can’t move and/or I’m sick with a 104 degree fever, I guess I’m overtrained. Otherwise, see you at the gym.