[quote]BASTARD GUY wrote:
futuredave wrote:
Tried these the other day and can’t even do one with the bar.
I just don’t have the shoulder flexibility and the bar ends up way too far in front of me.
Any tips/links on how to develop the proper shoulder range of motion for this? Thanks.
dump the pink shirt
[/quote]
Fine. You can have it back.
[quote]Ren wrote:
futuredave wrote:
Tried these the other day and can’t even do one with the bar.
I just don’t have the shoulder flexibility and the bar ends up way too far in front of me.
Any tips/links on how to develop the proper shoulder range of motion for this? Thanks.
Here’s what I do. Find a broom or 1 of those weighted rubberized bars that the aerobics classes use. OH squat with that so you can get the movement down. I like to do a few sets before/after every workout. Also, for shoulder flexibility, hold a broom in a snatch grip and do windmills. Where you start with the broom resting on your things and then you swing your arms up and over your head and back down till your broom touches your arse.
[/quote]
Not sure I get it.
Insert broom in ass… then what?
Regarding endurance versus strength:
I’ve never done more than 5 reps for any one set of Overhead Squats. I always train them in sets of 5.
I think the point is that if you can work up to say 220 or 230 for relatively comfortable sets of 5 (my bodyweight’s 215), then you’d be getting closer to bodyweight * 15, and at that stage, you’d start trying to do 8, then 10, then 12, and then finally 15 reps of bodyweight.
But I think it will take a while to get up to sets of 5 with bodyweight, let alone 15 reps.
Furthermore, you could always try working up to say 250 for sets of 3 or 5 reps, and if you can do a few sets of 5 reps with 250 (at a bodyweight of 215), then you ought to be able to do a fair few reps at 215 (maybe not 15, but certainly a few).
What I’d really like to know, though, is what Dan John (the pioneer of Overhead Squats), or those who have managed to complete bodyweight * 15, think of the exercise.
All those who have done bodyweight * 15, do you think the exercise made you into a monster and/or an animal?
Regarding shoulder flexibility etc… In my very limited experience, I have never seen anyone at my university gym perform overhead squats. I’ve asked some staff members to try with just the bar, and they can’t do them either. It’s simply something that most people can’t do at first.
You just have to keep doing them to the extent that you can do them (even if it’s only partials at first), and eventually you’ll be able to do the full-range movement.
I think it helps to have good squatting proficiency. Most people can’t do a proper (deep) back squat the first time they try it. I had done many rock-deep back squats before I ever tried Overhead Squats, and I think that helped me a lot in terms of developing the hip flexibility to go down all of the way when doing Overhead Squats (though shoulder flexibility is a separate issue).
But, in my very limited experience, you really ‘need it all’ to do Overhead Squats. If your hips or shoulders are inflexible, then you just can’t do them.
My primary question pertains to STRENGTH, as distinct from balance and flexibility and so on, but I am starting to get the feeling that if I can do 15 reps with bodyweight in the Overhead Squat, then I’ll be strong enough.
Heck, try holding a 215 pound bar above your head (without squatting). It’s not easy. I guess what I need to do is to work up to 215 * 15, and then I’ll be able to answer my question myself.
But I’d still like to hear all of your thoughts!
[quote]futuredave wrote:
Ren wrote:
futuredave wrote:
Tried these the other day and can’t even do one with the bar.
I just don’t have the shoulder flexibility and the bar ends up way too far in front of me.
Any tips/links on how to develop the proper shoulder range of motion for this? Thanks.
Here’s what I do. Find a broom or 1 of those weighted rubberized bars that the aerobics classes use. OH squat with that so you can get the movement down. I like to do a few sets before/after every workout. Also, for shoulder flexibility, hold a broom in a snatch grip and do windmills. Where you start with the broom resting on your things and then you swing your arms up and over your head and back down till your broom touches your arse.
Not sure I get it.
Insert broom in ass… then what?
[/quote]
go here:
http://www.dreamagic.com/gypsy/wo-stretch.html
and scroll down till the shoulder warmup. The 1st set of 4 pics is the closest thing I could find to what I am talking about.
Why would OH squats be viewed as a great strength builder?
For strength you want an exercise that will maximize the amount of load your body has to overcome.
The exercise that will do that the quickest is the back squat and it’s cousin, the box squat.
Before you knock them…
TRY THEM PLEASE.
I agree that the full back squat (I personally detest the box squat) is a great, wonderful, admirable exercise.
I just have become tired of doing heavy back squats every workout, and would like to try something different.
TRY doing 5 reps with just the bar in Overhead Squats. See what you think.
A few things:
Dan John would probably be the first to admit that he isn’t the pioneer of the exercise, if you read his article on the website he picked up the idea from others, although he did seem to be the one to introduce it to T-Nation (sorry to be nit-picking, but I thought that needed clearing up!)
I believe you get strong at OHS by just doing them regularly, they seem to be one of those exercises that needs constant “greasing the groove” for you to increase the weight used. I think you should mix up the rep ranges a bit though to improve both strength and endurance, so try sets of 3,5,8, 15 etc etc to get your body used to holding the heavy weight and also to remain stable for a long period of time. 1-2 months ago I was doing a program where each workout was started by doing 3x3 of OHS, I ended up adding about 10kg to my starting weight by the end of 4 weeks, but I was starting to stagnate as well, so maybe a change to higher rep would help me now.
OHS will help to build that “dad-strength” as Dan mentions in his article, but I think the point being made here is that the OHS teaches your body to co-ordinate use of all the muscle groups together when performing a task that requires use of the whole body. To make the individual body parts stronger you need to perform the traditional movements such as squats and deads for lower body and presses, chins and rows for upper body. You can build up great leg strength with squats and then use OHS to transfer this strength into being used for a “shole body” task.
For the shoulder flexibility search for “shoulder dislocates”, which is the exercise mentioned previously that uses a broomstick.
I don’t know, this “dad strength” sounds kinda hokey to me.
There was a time when I, too, had faith that the OH squat was the ultimate exercise. I got to do full range OH squat with the Oly bar and my right elbow was killing me. It would not go away. There’s probably some thoraic flexibility issues. Whatever, the learning curve for this exercise is not worth it to me (just a personal opinion).
Since I don’t participate in any strength sports, I decided not to continue the exercise.
[quote]oboffill wrote:
I don’t know, this “dad strength” sounds kinda hokey to me.
There was a time when I, too, had faith that the OH squat was the ultimate exercise. I got to do full range OH squat with the Oly bar and my right elbow was killing me. It would not go away. There’s probably some thoraic flexibility issues. Whatever, the learning curve for this exercise is not worth it to me (just a personal opinion).
Since I don’t participate in any strength sports, I decided not to continue the exercise. [/quote]
I am scared of dad strength. I come across it occasionally on the rugby field, some older bastard that can just truck through people. Its real, and its waiting for you!
[quote]oboffill wrote:
I don’t know, this “dad strength” sounds kinda hokey to me.
There was a time when I, too, had faith that the OH squat was the ultimate exercise. I got to do full range OH squat with the Oly bar and my right elbow was killing me. It would not go away. There’s probably some thoraic flexibility issues. Whatever, the learning curve for this exercise is not worth it to me (just a personal opinion).
Since I don’t participate in any strength sports, I decided not to continue the exercise. [/quote]
I think Dan would also say that if an exercise is hurting you, don’t do it.
[quote]futuredave wrote:
Tried these the other day and can’t even do one with the bar.
I just don’t have the shoulder flexibility and the bar ends up way too far in front of me.
Any tips/links on how to develop the proper shoulder range of motion for this? Thanks.[/quote]
Just keep on doing them and slowly increase your range of motion. My upper back muscles used to cramp like a bitch when I started them. Now I can do them relatively comfortably. I can only do 135 for singles, but I started with just the bar about 9 months ago so I am happy with that. I only weigh 150 lbs (I am 5"3) so only 15 more lbs to go (please don’t laugh that I am only 150) before trying to do 15x bodyweight.
Another plus with doing the OH squats is that I have much less shoulder pain on my left side. That had been an issue earlier, but the OHS really helped with that.
I also seem to have put on quite a bit of muscle on my upper back and shoulders since starting OHS. They are a mainstay of my program now along with deads, standing military presses, and pull-ups.
Great comments, everyone. Thanks a lot.
“Dad strength” - yes, I hate it when I come across it too. It’s embarrassing when a man who’s thirty years older than you can toss you around like a rag doll, without even really trying. But I’d certainly like to acquire some dad strength for myself, even if I don’t have any kids yet (or a wife).
I agree with bg100:
It was a bad choice of words on my part. Dan John didn’t ‘pioneer’ this exercise, but he certainly played an extremely influential role in bringing it to the attention of many, many aspiring lifters. Thank him very much.
I agree that the more often you do Overhead Squats, the easier it is to do them. The first set of every workout is always the most difficult, but once you get into the flow of it, the subsequent sets become easier. Changing up the rep ranges every now and then would be a good idea also. I personally think doing at least 5 reps per sets of Overhead Squats would be a good idea, as part of the challenge is to keep balancing for periods of time.
I went to the gym this morning and did a LOT of sets of Overhead Squats. And boy, did they wear me out.
After a warm-up, I started with 7 sets of 5 with 110 pounds (got every rep). Then I moved on to some dumbbell clean and presses, but I was too tired from the Overheads to do the C/P’s justice. So I just didn’t bother with the C/P’s, and being somewhat of a glutton for punishment, I decided to do some more Overhead Squats. I did sets of 5 reps with 115, then 120, then 126, then 132 pounds (I’m converting from kilograms, so the numbers are a bit irregular).
Boy, that last set just about wiped me out. I almost dropped the bar onto my head when ‘trying’ (key word, trying) to lower it to my back/shoulders at the end of the set.
Word of warning: if you’re going to work hard on Overheads in a given workout, don’t figure on getting much done after the Overheads, as it really does wear out your entire body (at least that’s my own experience).
I’m feeling pretty tired now, but I’m also feeling really enthused about Overhead Squats.
My history with them: I started doing them 3 months ago, for about 3 weeks, and then stopped doing them to move onto something else. A week ago, though, I started doing Overheads again, and I had forgotten the feeling that they give me - the feeling of extreme fatigue in my entire body (it only happens when you work up to a heavy-enough weight, though, which with me is 50 and above kilograms, 110 pounds for the Americans there).
I’m looking forwards to continuing my Overhead Squat workouts.
PS: bg100 - where in Australia are you, if I can ask? I’m in Melbourne, Victoria.
[quote]bg100 wrote:
A few things:
Actually Coach D was before him and there my have been some one before Coach D.
Peace
After doing them for 7 months now I have re-thought the philosophy of 15 at bodyweight. I now see the whole 15 at bw thing as someone who had goals beyond 15 at bodyweight. Like my main man Krollmonster implied, who would want to do 15 reps and why? I totally agree. Sure 15 at bodyweight would be great. I think that an ‘animal’ does not become an ‘animal’ because he hit 15 at bw, an ‘animal’ is animal and 15 at bodyweight is just something that he can do because he has achieved great success in the movement.
According to Dan John, 15 wasn’t a milestone that creates the ‘animal’, it was just an entrance to the jungle. It was also the only way he would let his throwers practice throwing. Once they hit 15, they are just at the beginning. They begin competing in track in field and over time become this animal that you speak of.
Just my thoughts, it’s also very early, so excuse my ramblings.
Oh yeah, I can hit 5 for body weight. Yay for me.
Are you guys serious, “Dad Strength”?
A guy is either strong or not, you’ve met strong, old guys.
Can’t wait for guys asking for articles on how to acquire more Dad Strength, because their Son Strength isn’t good enough.
After trying OHS last night, I realized what a suckass I am. I really need to work on my shoulder flexibility. A single BW OHS is my now one of my goals before the end of the year. Here goes nothing.
Obviously, there is no magic exercise. But, what I found with my throwers is that we had a one to one relationship with the OvSqt and distance. It was amazing and it convinced me that something good was going on.
Oh, and on the “Dad Strength” thing, read the fucking article first. I had a point to make.
It seemed that the lift…as many of you discovered…highlights the weak link in the chain. You can have a big back squat and can’t hold an empty bar above your head…that is a weak link.
I have done the 15 X BW at least three times. The heaviest was when I weighed around 255 and did 265. It is a test to do once a year…at most…and is up there with a Strongman Contest. (More fun to tell people you did it rather than to do it). I have had about three or four athletes do it and each was a terror on the fields of sport. The hard part of the test is around nine reps as the whole supportive structure just starts giving out…you have to play with tension and relaxation from the first.
That might be the key to why it is a great lift: the constant challenge of using tension and relaxation. That could be it…
[quote]oboffill wrote:
Are you guys serious, “Dad Strength”?
A guy is either strong or not, you’ve met strong, old guys.
Can’t wait for guys asking for articles on how to acquire more Dad Strength, because their Son Strength isn’t good enough. [/quote]
Haha I was just about to say, WTF is “Dad strength”?
Obviously THIS is what Ronnie is lacking and what makes him non-functional!