[quote]anhlong1122 wrote:
40kg, it is a bit low to run 5/3/1? Not saying that it doesn’t work as it help me go from 70kg x 1 to 76 kg x 2 in 9 months. Still a success in my case as it have been stalled for like a year at 70kg.[/quote]
How strong should someone be before running 5/3/1?[/quote]
When I started running 531 my OHP was probably 85 lbs at best due to bad shoulders. I’m at 135lbs now, and that came up quickly. The only thing I’d say with 531 for beginners is that overall, “newbie gains” will probably outpace the proscribed +5lbs or +10lbs per month. [/quote]
Aren’t you supposed to go for as many reps as possible though? I feel like the training max shouldn’t put a limit on strength.
Like, say a newbie is running the program, and on their 5s week they’re supposed to press 80lbs, and on their 3s week they’re supposed to press 90lbs. If they managed to press 80lbs for 8 reps on their 5s week, and the next week they press 90lbs for 9 reps because of newbie gains, wouldn’t that be good?
I’m stalled in the same way. I can do 5 x 130, but cant do 1 x 135. I think it is a technique breakdown, but my pro strongman pal recommended these. It helps recruit all those muscles for the transition from the rack position to pushing the head through. I just did them for the first time this week, a whole new variety of sore, but everything he’s suggested has worked, so I’ll do them.
.[/quote]
What is your pressing style like? I know a lot of guys that bounce a little out of the bottom on reps and don’t go all the way down to the chest. If you’re pressing like this, then you’ll probably notice that the first rep is much harder then subsequent ones. If this is the case, rep maxes probably won’t relate to 1RM very well. Personally, I found better gains by dropping the weight a little and doing stricter reps (i.e. all the way down to chest, pause at chest).
This might go a little against the grain here, but I’m not sure how I feel about 5/3/1. There are a lot of good things, don’t get me wrong. But I’m not sure how I feel about the + sets. They’re good if you have a really good feel for what is a good number of reps. But it’s really easy to fall into the trap of doing shitty reps or even failing regularly. Doing a lot of shitty reps isn’t a good thing if you don’t do a lot of volume to begin with. Also noticed that some people don’t seem to respond as well to the low volume, especially for benching/pressing (i.e. me, lol).
I think one of the biggest problem with 5/3/1 for beginners is psychological in that your actual working weights progress pretty slowly. As a program it doesn’t limit your actual ability to get stronger, but it makes it harder to brag to your friends or show off. It may be several months before you have any idea where your actual 1RMs are.
Which I think is great for long term progress… but I don’t think rep PRs hold as much value with a beginner as weight PRs. Non-lifters seem to understand a 200 lb bench press better than they understand that 200 x 10 is significantly stronger than 200 x 1.
I think it’s just one of those things you have to work through as a lifter, just like the “so I’m 3 times stronger than I used to be, but why do I look almost the same” question. (I do think several 5/3/1 templates do a good job addressing this side of things though.)
There’s definitely a mental learning experience that goes along with this all.
[quote]LoRez wrote:
I think one of the biggest problem with 5/3/1 for beginners is psychological in that your actual working weights progress pretty slowly. As a program it doesn’t limit your actual ability to get stronger, but it makes it harder to brag to your friends or show off. It may be several months before you have any idea where your actual 1RMs are.
Which I think is great for long term progress… but I don’t think rep PRs hold as much value with a beginner as weight PRs. Non-lifters seem to understand a 200 lb bench press better than they understand that 200 x 10 is significantly stronger than 200 x 1.
I think it’s just one of those things you have to work through as a lifter, just like the “so I’m 3 times stronger than I used to be, but why do I look almost the same” question. (I do think several 5/3/1 templates do a good job addressing this side of things though.)
There’s definitely a mental learning experience that goes along with this all.[/quote]
I will agree with this. Part of what got me hooked on lifting was the HOLY SHIT factor of surprising myself with how quickly my strength came on a (somewhat bastardized) 5x5 fullbody 3 day/week program with a fair bit of heavy singles and 1RM testing done in the second half of my first year. I also made quite a few jumps that were bigger than 5/10 pounds, really putting my pedal to the metal.
I was probably taking more risk than I needed to with all of that max effort stuff, but it was a valuable experience for me as a new lifter. It was also fun as shit for me.
I’m “settling in” to 5/3/1 now and I’m really liking it. I definitely see it as a very long-term template that I could use for decades of productive lifting. I’ll probably do some “joker” sets next year to get an idea of where my maxes are at, but I see the wisdom in submaximal lifting for rep PR’s now.
I think it is a fine program for a patient beginner who has faith in the program, but I’m glad I ran a 5x5 fullbody.
Back on topic, one does not need to run 5/3/1 to use a similar scheme for the press. I actually moved away from 5x5 to higher rep sets before switching to 5/3/1 and I believe that was beneficial for my press.
I’m stalled in the same way. I can do 5 x 130, but cant do 1 x 135. I think it is a technique breakdown, but my pro strongman pal recommended these. It helps recruit all those muscles for the transition from the rack position to pushing the head through. I just did them for the first time this week, a whole new variety of sore, but everything he’s suggested has worked, so I’ll do them.
.[/quote]
What is your pressing style like? I know a lot of guys that bounce a little out of the bottom on reps and don’t go all the way down to the chest. If you’re pressing like this, then you’ll probably notice that the first rep is much harder then subsequent ones. If this is the case, rep maxes probably won’t relate to 1RM very well. Personally, I found better gains by dropping the weight a little and doing stricter reps (i.e. all the way down to chest, pause at chest).
This might go a little against the grain here, but I’m not sure how I feel about 5/3/1. There are a lot of good things, don’t get me wrong. But I’m not sure how I feel about the + sets. They’re good if you have a really good feel for what is a good number of reps. But it’s really easy to fall into the trap of doing shitty reps or even failing regularly. Doing a lot of shitty reps isn’t a good thing if you don’t do a lot of volume to begin with. Also noticed that some people don’t seem to respond as well to the low volume, especially for benching/pressing (i.e. me, lol).[/quote]
Thanks for the tips. An update, I hit 135 Tuesday night. It came up quick, and I think my problem was more bar path than anything. I was pressing out as much as up. I focused on getting really tight and hitting the ceiling and it went right up.
On 531, he does stress good form before any programming. I’m on the fence if it is the right thing for a beginner, but I think whatever get someone started is good. I jumped into Sheiko (because I literally had nothing better to do) early in my adult lifting career, which got me some great gains and capacity, but I think I re-enforced some basic mistakes which ultimately held back my numbers. You can only squat and DL so much with shitty form, but I am fixing them now.
[quote]TheKraken wrote:
You can only squat and DL so much with shitty form, but I am fixing them now. [/quote]
It’s true with any lift. When the weight actually gets heavy is when shitty form gets exposed. You can get away with it on light weights for yourself, but not when you start hitting big numbers. Shitty form is basically inefficient mechanics meaning lost or transferred power (such as putting more load on tendons or secondary muscles than should be).
This is why lifters ought to learn the correct mechanics/form ASAP. It’s a lot easier to drill it earlier than it is to unwind bad habits later or cause unnecessary pain/injury.
My press improved when I starting doing some high rep sets after the main work. (10 reps, 3-5 sets) And strenght work was mostly sets of 3 with weights that can be lifted fairly quickly (4 or 5 rep max I guess).
Also make sure you dont have restricted mobility in the thoracic spine and shoulders, as it would lead to the lower back compensating by hyperextending.
Make sure you’re bracing the core and squeezing your glutes and all that stuff.
At the risk of dragging up an old thread, just wanted to thank everyone for their advice. Pressed 5x5 at 45kg this week, I think for the first time ever. Compared it to my numbers 6 weeks ago before I started really focusing on it, and I’m really pleased with the progress.
Reps as at 05/12/14: 3, 4, 2, 0, 0
Reps as at 29/01/15: 5, 5, 5, 5, 5
Weight now goes up, and process starts all over again!
Commenting on an older thread but just wanted to give my view.
So, there are a couple of points on overhead pressing. First, I think it can handle and require a lot of volume. Second, multiple rep sets are normally nothing like single reps.
It?s a lot like deadlifts where touch and go reps are far easier than releasing at the bottom and train a very different technique. Like the deadlift the overhead press starts at the bottom of the lift. This may be why you crash and burn at a given weight. If you can get the first rep, the other reps are considerably easier. So, for example, if you hit 5 on your 3rd set one week then go up a small amount and only get 2 on that set the next week, you may really have done close to the same amount of work you did on the 5 rep set. (aside from a form breakdown) Especially looking at where you are getting 0 reps on sets, I?m willing to bet this is the case. The first rep is the majority of the work on your sets.
Seems contradictory, to get volume and not use mulit-rep sets, but I like cluster sets to accomplish both. In a cluster you get to rest between reps BUT each rep is a true from the bottom press. I can generally do more reps on a continuous set than I can as a cluster despite the fact that I?m resting briefly between reps.
If you are wanting to increase your from the bottom 1 rep max overhead press, I?d suggest you train the way you do the lift you want to improve. Try resetting on your 5x5, but do clusters instead of continuous sets. Doing progressions like 5x5 aren?t designed to do one lift on the first rep and a different sort of rep on the other 4.
The overhead press is such a “skill lift” that you need to practice with EXACTLY the same technique on all reps. So make them all first reps and get volume with cluster sets.
I guess it’s the same when training any lift for a max single. You need volume to build the lift, but it has to be useful volume. Train the way you do the lift you want to improve.
It seems so simple when you lay it out like that, but that’s like years and years of experience boiled down.
I’m stalled in the same way. I can do 5 x 130, but cant do 1 x 135. I think it is a technique breakdown, but my pro strongman pal recommended these. It helps recruit all those muscles for the transition from the rack position to pushing the head through. I just did them for the first time this week, a whole new variety of sore, but everything he’s suggested has worked, so I’ll do them.
.[/quote]
Hmmmmmm, I’m gonna have to give this a shot. Where did you program these in (During warm-up, as an accessory, etc…)?
OHP progression is, imo, one of the hardest to nail down. I’ve had a similar thing happen where I literally crush 130 and then feel like 135 is 500… Shit is crazy.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Anyone ever try overhead pressing starting from the top of the lift like a bench? I’ve seen it mentioned before, never tried it myself.[/quote]
I’ve thought about it, but never tried it either. I’m interested in the results as well.
I’m stalled in the same way. I can do 5 x 130, but cant do 1 x 135. I think it is a technique breakdown, but my pro strongman pal recommended these. It helps recruit all those muscles for the transition from the rack position to pushing the head through. I just did them for the first time this week, a whole new variety of sore, but everything he’s suggested has worked, so I’ll do them.
.[/quote]
Hmmmmmm, I’m gonna have to give this a shot. Where did you program these in (During warm-up, as an accessory, etc…)?
OHP progression is, imo, one of the hardest to nail down. I’ve had a similar thing happen where I literally crush 130 and then feel like 135 is 500… Shit is crazy. [/quote]
I do them as accessory after my working sets. Last night I was pressed for time (ha! get it?) so I did a 3x3 @ 95lbs set between DL sets, which has me pretty sore today.
BTW–I found the problem with my pressing, when the weight get heavy my bar path starts to go forward instead of up. It shows up more on log presses, but I am working to correct it. The Dick’s presses have help a lot with this because it works exactly that transition (right at the nose) where I lose the rep and strengthens that trap/shoulder connection and co-ordination. I haven’t tested lately, but I think I have a solid PR ready for OHP.
Seated presses done out of some kind or rack or bench usually start at the top. Most of the time when I see this lift, the bar stops before the very bottom to keep pressure on the delts, body builder style. Sometimes you see the huge arch with the head way way back to make the lift into a steep incline.
It seems like all the guys who regularly do this can lift at least 225-275 in this fashion. I call it terrible technique, I’ll never lift like that. I say, “no way they could do that standing.” I curse them under my breath because I can’t press that much standing or seated. Also, they all seem to have huge shoulders.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Anyone ever try overhead pressing starting from the top of the lift like a bench? I’ve seen it mentioned before, never tried it myself.[/quote]
I’ve thought about it, but never tried it either. I’m interested in the results as well. [/quote]
I’ve done it before and used the stretch reflex. It’s definitely easier than starting from the bottom. It’s kind of a pain to load the weights on the bar up high, but I wasn’t using a step stool or ladder either; that would obviously make it easier.
I’m definitely going to be trying the cluster sets on the press for my 5/3/1 sets and continue with higher-rep sets using the stretch reflex for my assistance.
Thanks for the great idea and clear explanation, DoubleDuce!
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
Anyone ever try overhead pressing starting from the top of the lift like a bench? I’ve seen it mentioned before, never tried it myself.[/quote]
No, but now I will if for no other reason to see how different it is. Thinking about it, walking the weight out might be difficult.
