T Nation

Overeem at 255 and That Quick?

I was unable to watch the fight, but was he really at 255? To me, it just seems like he’s getting bigger and bigger. Nearly a year ago he was 225 at Strikeforce and now he’s at the upper end of HW @ a ripped 255?

I know when he fought CC back in Sept(?) he was 242. Anyone know his weight when he fought Goodridge in November?

I mean if the guy was naturally bulking in prep for Le Banner, I want to know what his routine is considering he is keeping his speed (and I’m assuming his cardio is improving) all while adding what appears to be some nice mass.

Anyone have a clue as to what his weight routine was/could be in order to add mass, all while keeping speed and cardio up?

(Ahem!) No comment.

exactly.

Squats and milk?

I think people are too quick to point to steroid use. I know that I usually like to defend athletes from accusations like banned substance abuse, but I think I can make an especially good case for Overeem.

Consider that Overeem claims he wasn’t ever to weight life prior to his move to heavyweight because he had a tendency to gain mass too quick. Second, one should consider that he claimed to have cut from at least 220lbs in order to make the 205 weight class. Thirdly, take a look at his natural genetic disposition. (I know we can’t get into his gene sequencing here, but bear with me). I mean, even the phenomes that appear, would tend to suggest that Alistair is a naturally gifted athlete, with a propensity for “fast twitch muscle type” (large motor nueron based)

I see no reason why Alistair couldn’t accomplish what he’s done naturally. I’ve worked with plenty of athletes, and generally you can tell the ones that will be able to make significant size/ strength gains by introducing them to the weight room. Alistair would match the criteria to be one of such said athletes.

Nevermind just read Mj_k’s post*

Considering that he had been damn near starving himself to fight at 205 it’s possible, especially for a genetic specimen like him. He was cutting from like 225 anyway, on top of that it’s taken him nearly a year to get that big. He also didn’t lift weights before so he has lot of newbie gains.

so guy with AWESOME genetics
didn’t lift before for YEARS (if at all)
has professional trainers
dedication of a professional athlete
access to whatever foods he needs
trains for a living

gains ~30lbs in a year

it’s entirely possible but if it was a lil t-prop/tren/hgh or whatever i wouldn’t be surprised at all.

Possible?
Yes of course.

But guys…

The debate may be settled sooner rather than later. At this moment Alistair is very interested in joining the UFC and the UFC is very interested in signing Alistair. I assume this is widely known already so I won’t post links. But go ahead and check out cagepotato.com if you don’t believe me.

And by that I mean that the UFC’s steroid testing will determine things for us. (not to say they’ll detect what he’s doing RIGHT at this moment though).

Most guys I would probably consider juicers, but I think Alistair is a prime candidate to be an exception to the case.

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Possible?
Yes of course.

But guys…[/quote]

yea like mj_gk said though, if there’s ONE guy i’d give a pass to it would probably be overeem.


Progress:

Dudes, this is silly!

Why are we talking about a hypothetical bodybuilding talent?

If Overeem’s plan was to bulk, to gain mass and strength then it would be foolish, outright insane for his trainers and coaches not to advise him to use chemical assistance.

It’s OK in Japan (where he fights), it’s totally legal regarding future UFC exploits, it’s faster and safer for a seasoned veteran.

Overeem’s not 20 . From memory, I say he’s thirty. At that age, you can’t just “train more” and expect to grow accordingly.

He had people who know their stuff, and I’m pretty sure I know what they told him early on…

T-Nation is a site where we can talk about training related things with open eyes, a site where drug use and abuse can be discussed without resorting into the usual cliches of “good and bad” athletes.
Overeem’s not a squeaky cleaner, morally shinier athlete for not being on.

An MMA heavyweight athlete in Japan will very probably muscle up using AAS. It’s a smart, prudent and economical decision.
It makes as little sense debating this as stating that he never trains his kicks outside of sparring, or that he never had a real boxing coach in his life.

What’s the point?

Actually, that’s a very interesting point, schwarzfahrer. I hadn’t considered that while fighting in Japan, the trainers would actively promote the use of steroids. (I don’t mean ‘steroid’ in a derogatory sense, which seems to be the implication here)

So, considering that particular steroids are legal, then why wouldn’t an athlete like Overeem use them?

Well, what about the possibility of a chance to fight in the States on a relatively short notice? I’m not talking UFC, but Affliction comes to mind, as they seemingly just throw their deck of cards in the air, and however they land is the fight schedule.

Another thing I’d be interested in hearing is the ‘stereotype’ of steroid in Japan. It’s well documented in the States and most of western Europe how the public views such substances.

There are others, but I’m pressed for time at moment, I’m leaving for Judo practice. :slight_smile:

In short, however, I see why physiologically an athlete would love the use of steroids, however public opinion, (depending on japan) could sway their use, amongst other things.

[quote]mj_gk wrote:
Actually, that’s a very interesting point, schwarzfahrer. I hadn’t considered that while fighting in Japan, the trainers would actively promote the use of steroids. (I don’t mean ‘steroid’ in a derogatory sense, which seems to be the implication here)

So, considering that particular steroids are legal, then why wouldn’t an athlete like Overeem use them?

Well, what about the possibility of a chance to fight in the States on a relatively short notice? I’m not talking UFC, but Affliction comes to mind, as they seemingly just throw their deck of cards in the air, and however they land is the fight schedule.

Another thing I’d be interested in hearing is the ‘stereotype’ of steroid in Japan. It’s well documented in the States and most of western Europe how the public views such substances.

There are others, but I’m pressed for time at moment, I’m leaving for Judo practice. :slight_smile:

In short, however, I see why physiologically an athlete would love the use of steroids, however public opinion, (depending on japan) could sway their use, amongst other things. [/quote]

You make some good points.

Steroids do not have the stigma that they have in the states . For example Major League players such as Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens are still widely respected despite the news reporting on their steroid scandals. I think that the average Japanese just does not know anything about the drugs, good or bad.

During the Athens Olympics in the Hammer Throw, Murofushi Koji won the silver medal. The gold medalist was caught up in some controversy because he would not subject himself to a drug test. I think it was to test for a B sample. I do not remember it clearly. Anyway the media was not up in arms about doping.

The reporting was pretty dry. Oh he doped, ok. So that means Murofushi Koji gets the gold medal, ok. Not much outcry on this. Quite the opposite really, a bittersweet feeling of being “given” the gold medal, rather than earning it on the field.

That being said if you say not to do something in Japan, for the most part Japanese will not do it. They are very rule conscious. If the rules say do not use drugs they won’t because the if they are caught the social costs will be great. You will have to show the appropriate amount of hansei(regret) and make public apologies to take responsibility. These are generalizations of course.

But if their is no rule or law well then no problem. This has good and bad consequences though.

I suspect that Japanese fighters for the most part do not use drugs…I think they should though while in Japan. They also are behind in strength and conditioning and weight cutting(except the wrestlers) compared to their American counterparts.

Let’s put it this way: If you are fighting in organization where there is no drug testing, and no stigma surrounding there use (and it’s quite common among all the fighters), and you gain 20kg+ of lean mass, you’re crazy for not getting it done with AAS.

ok fuck it you guys are right …

[quote]lilronnie wrote:
Progress:[/quote]

This has been my desktop background for motivation since it was first posted on sherdog lol.

I think, as a spectator (not a fighter), that overeem has more than likely used whatever means necessary to gain weight. I don’t know anyone that gained weight during wrestling season. This is my only frame of reference. If he had taken some time off from mma to gain some weight, I might believe he gained it naturally.

That being said, every fighter has the option of not taking a fight against him knowing this. If he ends up in the US, it is up to his opponent to decide whether or not to agree to a fight with him.

My understanding of rules leads me to believe that the requirement is not for a competing athlete to be a life long drug free competitor.

From a consumer’s perspective, I would rather see all competitors take every advantage, under the rules, that they can. This can only make for a better fight.

From an alpha male’s perspective I would like to find an excuse to diminish other males’ accomplishments to justify my self-perceived alpha male status.

It’s quite the conundrum, but quite predictable. I would rather see a juiced up Overeem take on the best of the best and let my humility handle the results. But I am a bit selfish.

To say that any fighter in an organization that does not drug test is ‘stupid’ for not using AAS is to overlook the negative health consequences associated with steroids. While they may allow you to reach your goals, there are some who do value their health above their career; and regardless of how exaggerated these negative health consequences are, the threat is real enough to deter most people living a healthy lifestyle away from AAS.

Also, putting on 30 or so pounds of LBM changes a fighters’ performance drastically. Speed, power, conditioning, agility, balance as well as other attributes will change with a such a large gain in muscle. This takes time to adapt to, which is why a slower bulk would be more appropriate for an active professional fighter. Putting on or losing too much weight too quickly can only be a bad thing in terms of performance for any fighter.

Regardless of whether Alistaire used anabolic steroids to achieve his goals, there is no drug that can make a fighter improve his skills at the rate Overeem has. Over the last several years he has evolved from a one-dimensional, mediocre kickboxer, to one of the most well-rounded, technical heavyweights in the world. And I cant wait to see him fight (and beat) top competition.

What’s with all the haters on here?

Well, considering he starved himself to fight at LHW, we can give him the benefit of doubt, he really improved his skills.

The only thing left to see if he has really improved is his HEART, he always cowarded when the fight wasn’t going to his favor, just like Belfort.