T Nation

Over the UFC

I’m probably going to get flamed for this post, but oh well.

Basically, I think the divisions are dominated by super-athletic guys at the top and relative donkeys below.

We heard all of this talk prior to the Penn/Florian fight about Florian’s muay thai. Well, Florian ended up trying to avoid Penn’s power the entire fight. He also came in a lot smaller than Penn.

We all saw Penn/Stevenson. When Penn decides to train, no one at his weight can beat him.

GSP/Alves: I thought this was actually going to be a good fight considering Alves cut through everyone else so quickly. Turns out that he still couldn’t hold a candle to GSP. GSP just ended up running a ground-and-pound clinic and getting the decision.

Anderson Silva vs. anybody at MW, LHW, or (possibly) HW. I know Machida’s the champ at LHW, but only because Silva has said he’ll never fight Machida. Seriously, who does the UFC have at MW and LHW that even comes close to posing a danger to Silva?

We’re told by idiots like Joe Rogan pre-fight how a lot of the contenders have “evolving games” and “improved standup” and all this other stuff. I’m just not seeing it except in the champs, and now they’re trying to get GSP to move up and (of course) Silva already has.

The WEC has way more competition and athleticism, IMO. It’s way more fun to watch. The UFC’s got a problem finding talent, and TUF is certainly not helping this season.

WEC is fun to watch, but take any of their champs and put them in the UFC and see who wins? Chael Sonnen much? It sucks, but the champs are the champs because they are the best at MMA at the moment. Well I should say ‘winning’ and not ‘mma’, as some champs kind of actually suck at fighting! (Machida cough cough). It’s like the Patriots back when they ran the NFL. Noone could touch them. It will just take time for more people to get into the UFC, talent wise.

But it is true and somewhat disappointing that the disparity between the #1 and #2 in some divisions is so huge.

Again, this is why I think there should be a heavyweight and superheavyweight division. Part of the reason Brock trainwrecks people is that some of them shouldn’t be in the same weight class as him.

As an aside, who do you think would go into the heavyweight and superheavyweight divisions?

[quote]Therizza wrote:
WEC is fun to watch, but take any of their champs and put them in the UFC and see who wins? Chael Sonnen much? It sucks, but the champs are the champs because they are the best at MMA at the moment. Well I should say ‘winning’ and not ‘mma’, as some champs kind of actually suck at fighting! (Machida cough cough). It’s like the Patriots back when they ran the NFL. Noone could touch them. It will just take time for more people to get into the UFC, talent wise.

But it is true and somewhat disappointing that the disparity between the #1 and #2 in some divisions is so huge.

Again, this is why I think there should be a heavyweight and superheavyweight division. Part of the reason Brock trainwrecks people is that some of them shouldn’t be in the same weight class as him.

As an aside, who do you think would go into the heavyweight and superheavyweight divisions?[/quote]

Making a superheavyweight division would just reinforce the talent gaps…and think about the overall level of athleticism of super-heavyweights…and the fact that they’re not many fighters to fill a super HW division. People would just label it the “freakshow” division.

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Therizza wrote:
WEC is fun to watch, but take any of their champs and put them in the UFC and see who wins? Chael Sonnen much? It sucks, but the champs are the champs because they are the best at MMA at the moment. Well I should say ‘winning’ and not ‘mma’, as some champs kind of actually suck at fighting! (Machida cough cough). It’s like the Patriots back when they ran the NFL. Noone could touch them. It will just take time for more people to get into the UFC, talent wise.

But it is true and somewhat disappointing that the disparity between the #1 and #2 in some divisions is so huge.

Again, this is why I think there should be a heavyweight and superheavyweight division. Part of the reason Brock trainwrecks people is that some of them shouldn’t be in the same weight class as him.

As an aside, who do you think would go into the heavyweight and superheavyweight divisions?

Making a superheavyweight division would just reinforce the talent gaps…and think about the overall level of athleticism of super-heavyweights…and the fact that they’re not many fighters to fill a super HW division. People would just label it the “freakshow” division. [/quote]

Well I was thinking of it more for the future, to give those guys chilling at 240 a more even playing field. But that of course is assuming there will be some massive influx of Brock and Carwin sized guys sometime soon…

If they were to do anything affecting the HW division,I think it would be better to have some kind of cruiser weight division…like 220lbs or something of the sort.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
I’m probably going to get flamed for this post, but oh well.

Basically, I think the divisions are dominated by super-athletic guys at the top and relative donkeys below.
[/quote]
I don’t think you will get flamed. There seems to be a bit of lul in really good championship fights lately. In select divisions, there does seem to be a shortage of top-notch challengers. I think this is temporary.

I think BJ has some interesting fights at 155. Sanchez should be competitive. I also like Maynards chances. Stylistically, I think they match-up well. Both can push the pace and bully their apponents, something BJ can have a tough time with. As long as they don’t use Sherk’s gameplan, they should be ok.

There are other interesting match-ups. A guy can be an underdog and still put on an interesting fight. I wouldn’t mind seeing Griffen or Edgar fight BJ. I wouldn’t pick either to win, but I think they would be intesting fights.

GSP is the best P4P fighter in my opinion. The UFC is going to have the toughest time coming up with interesting match-ups here. While there is nothing wrong with a dominant champion, I this this will be temporary. There are some young guns like Anthony Johnson, that should present a challenge soon enough.

I think guys like Marquardt and Hendo have the potential to make an interesting fight with AS. Much better than their previous showings. Sooner or later, someone will figure him out. It’s probalby going to be someone that can get him to the ground.

We’ve seem champions go on a run before. They all seemed unstoppable at some point. It never lasts too long.

Can’t argue with your point on the WEC.

I don’t beleive the UFC’s problem is talent. I think the problem is some guys that are extremely talented/gifted maybe not going to the very best camps, hiring the very best S&C coaches, etc.

I think this will change over time. As the money gets better, the best camps will expand, new ones will pop up, and more guys will be in a possition to hire the very best.

[quote]Therizza wrote:
As an aside, who do you think would go into the heavyweight and superheavyweight divisions?[/quote]

Uh… everyone in HW since they can all make 265. There’s no need for a superHW division because the talent pool is so thin for anyone above it. Honestly, there’s no one that can’t make 265 that I’m even interested in watching, except possible Mark Hunt for nostalgic reasons, not as a true contender.

[quote]maverickbu wrote:
Therizza wrote:
As an aside, who do you think would go into the heavyweight and superheavyweight divisions?

Uh… everyone in HW since they can all make 265. Changing the weight division just for one guy is ridiculous. There’s no need for a superHW division because the talent pool is so thin for anyone above it. Honestly, there’s no one that can’t make 265 that I’m even interested in watching, except possible Mark Hunt for nostalgic reasons, not as a true contender.[/quote]

I would love to see Antonio Silva’s ugly ass in the UFC…he’s been making 265lbs comfortably his last few fights.

[quote]Therizza wrote:
WEC is fun to watch, but take any of their champs and put them in the UFC and see who wins? Chael Sonnen much? It sucks, but the champs are the champs because they are the best at MMA at the moment. Well I should say ‘winning’ and not ‘mma’, as some champs kind of actually suck at fighting! (Machida cough cough). It’s like the Patriots back when they ran the NFL. Noone could touch them. It will just take time for more people to get into the UFC, talent wise.

But it is true and somewhat disappointing that the disparity between the #1 and #2 in some divisions is so huge.

Again, this is why I think there should be a heavyweight and superheavyweight division. Part of the reason Brock trainwrecks people is that some of them shouldn’t be in the same weight class as him.

As an aside, who do you think would go into the heavyweight and superheavyweight divisions?[/quote]

I agree with B_B. They can’t even really fill out the HW division, and I don’t think TUF is getting them any closer this season.

I was hoping Kimbo’s ground game evolved because he’s one of those guys that appears to have raw athletic talent and size, but it looked like he hadn’t done anything with it in the intervening period since EliteXC collapsed.

Following Dhickey’s post(didn’t feel like quoting all of that shit…lol)…I think something has to be said for fighters in the same divisions who are all part of the same camps that won’t fight each other. Think AKA,ATT,and Greg Jackson’s camp.

Not saying that some of the guys will never fight each other…because we know that people switch camps all the time. But as of now,those teammate issues are short-changing us of some awesome match-ups and top contenders.

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
If they were to do anything affecting the HW division,I think it would be better to have some kind of cruiser weight division…like 220lbs or something of the sort. [/quote]

What about just expanding the 205 div to 215? A 25lb spread at that weight is not all that different to a 15lb spread at 155.

I really don’t think there are that many guys at HW that couldn’t either cut to 215 or put on some weight if they think they need to to compete.

I really don’t see the differense between a size/strenght dissadvantage and a BJJ/Wrestling/Striking dissadvantage. If you think you are lacking in one area, you need to focus on it. Guys act like size and strength (the kind that provides real advantage) is something you are born with and is some sort of unfair advantage that can’t be bridged. I say bullshit. If you need to be bigger and stronger to compete, then focus on it.

I don’t want to cut weight and I don’t want to focus on being bigger and stronger, make a weight class for me. I just don’t buy it. Sounds about as logical as saying you don’t want to focus on wrestling and want a division with no wrestlers.

If anything, height and reach should have more of a determining factor in weight class selection by a fighter. Those are things you cannot improve on. If you are 5’10" with short arms, you should probably stay away from the higher weight classes even if you can come in at a competitive weight.

Kimbo is a product of hype, nothing more less, nothing less. Good brawler, nice guy, terribly lacking skillwise. He would need Couture-like longevity to grow to a true UFC level contender even as a HW, forget LHW.

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
maverickbu wrote:
Therizza wrote:
As an aside, who do you think would go into the heavyweight and superheavyweight divisions?

Uh… everyone in HW since they can all make 265. Changing the weight division just for one guy is ridiculous. There’s no need for a superHW division because the talent pool is so thin for anyone above it. Honestly, there’s no one that can’t make 265 that I’m even interested in watching, except possible Mark Hunt for nostalgic reasons, not as a true contender.

I would love to see Antonio Silva’s ugly ass in the UFC…he’s been making 265lbs comfortably his last few fights. [/quote]

dito. I have been keeping my eye on him. Can’t wait to see how he does against Werdum.

I dunno about that. BJ’s standup is better than Sanchez. BJ is more muscular when he wants to be. Ground-in-pound is not going to get Sanchez anywhere but tapped-out.

Maybe he (Sanchez) should go live in Thailand for six months and then come back. We’d finally have some solid stand-up to watch in the UFC and someone might pose a threat to BJ.

I don’t think I’d pay to watch Griffin fight again. I think he’s reached the peak of his game.

The guy that did the best against AS was the one who kept taking him down. Eventually, he got caught in a triangle and elbowed half to death, but he looked like he was actually doing well.

I suspect AS was just trying to keep the fight going for the fans, though.

Some of the fighters clearly have the “even though it’s broke, don’t fix it” mentality when it comes to their training, coaches, and camps. Some of these guys have clearly reached their potential in one aspect of their game but fail to improve other aspects noticeably.

I don’t know how much better the money can get without more venues to fight in besides the UFC. EVeryone’s afraid of starting something rivaling the UFC because they saw what happened to EliteXC and all the others. But that’s the same thing that keeps the sport from expanding economically which in turn keeps the pay down.

I dunno if more money would help, though. There’s a lot of NCAA wrestlers with no professional league to go into when they’re done, and the Olympic team doesn’t pay any bills. Basically, a lot of them will try MMA as a default. There’s a lot of amateur muay thai, but no real money in it. Rob McCullough and Kit Cope both moved over to MMA from muay thai for the money. AS used to fight muay thai in Brazil. My point is, there are plenty of “feeder leagues” for UFC already. Perhaps the mgmt there lacks an eye for talent.

[quote]maverickbu wrote:
Kimbo is a product of hype, nothing more less, nothing less. Good brawler, nice guy, terribly lacking skillwise. He would need Couture-like longevity to grow to a true UFC level contender even as a HW, forget LHW.[/quote]

I agree. But I have this pet theory that there’s a market for naturally swole guys because they’re athletic. Look at LeBron. Sure, he’s very technically capable at what he does, but he’s also always been a man-child. Part of the reason he’s so dominant is that he’s so hyooge.

You’d have thought that Kimbo would have just put his stand up skills in “maintenance mode” (shadow boxing, footwork just to keep from getting too rusty) and then trained BJJ like a mad-man since EliteXC went under.

Nope.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
maverickbu wrote:
Kimbo is a product of hype, nothing more less, nothing less. Good brawler, nice guy, terribly lacking skillwise. He would need Couture-like longevity to grow to a true UFC level contender even as a HW, forget LHW.

I agree. But I have this pet theory that there’s a market for naturally swole guys because they’re athletic. Look at LeBron. Sure, he’s very technically capable at what he does, but he’s also always been a man-child. Part of the reason he’s so dominant is that he’s so hyooge.

You’d have thought that Kimbo would have just put his stand up skills in “maintenance mode” (shadow boxing, footwork just to keep from getting too rusty) and then trained BJJ like a mad-man since EliteXC went under.

Nope. [/quote]

Worked well for koschek. Stopped wrestling in training and focused solely on striking, now he’s a top guy at WW. GSP light, as well rounded as GSP (except maybe subs) with a little less proficiency across the board.

But to be fair, kimbo really isnt that good a boxer either. He uses head movement, but its mechanical, not reactive. He’s quick for his size and has heavy hands, that’s about it. A great prospect if he got himself on youtube a decade earlier.

[quote]maverickbu wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
maverickbu wrote:
Kimbo is a product of hype, nothing more less, nothing less. Good brawler, nice guy, terribly lacking skillwise. He would need Couture-like longevity to grow to a true UFC level contender even as a HW, forget LHW.

I agree. But I have this pet theory that there’s a market for naturally swole guys because they’re athletic. Look at LeBron. Sure, he’s very technically capable at what he does, but he’s also always been a man-child. Part of the reason he’s so dominant is that he’s so hyooge.

You’d have thought that Kimbo would have just put his stand up skills in “maintenance mode” (shadow boxing, footwork just to keep from getting too rusty) and then trained BJJ like a mad-man since EliteXC went under.

Nope.

Worked well for koschek. Stopped wrestling in training and focused solely on striking, now he’s a top guy at WW. GSP light, as well rounded as GSP (except maybe subs) with a little less proficiency across the board.

But to be fair, kimbo really isnt that good a boxer either. He uses head movement, but its mechanical, not reactive. He’s quick for his size and has heavy hands, that’s about it. A great prospect if he got himself on youtube a decade earlier.[/quote]

Koscheck’s problem is that he forgets that he is well-rounded…and when faced with someone who is a more proficient striker,he wants to trade with them and forgets he can takedown/outwrestle anyone not GSP(or maybe Fitch).

Now that I think about it, Koschek did impress me the last time I saw him fight. He’s no GSP, but he looked a lot better when he fought on Spike last time.

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
maverickbu wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
maverickbu wrote:
Kimbo is a product of hype, nothing more less, nothing less. Good brawler, nice guy, terribly lacking skillwise. He would need Couture-like longevity to grow to a true UFC level contender even as a HW, forget LHW.

I agree. But I have this pet theory that there’s a market for naturally swole guys because they’re athletic. Look at LeBron. Sure, he’s very technically capable at what he does, but he’s also always been a man-child. Part of the reason he’s so dominant is that he’s so hyooge.

You’d have thought that Kimbo would have just put his stand up skills in “maintenance mode” (shadow boxing, footwork just to keep from getting too rusty) and then trained BJJ like a mad-man since EliteXC went under.

Nope.

Worked well for koschek. Stopped wrestling in training and focused solely on striking, now he’s a top guy at WW. GSP light, as well rounded as GSP (except maybe subs) with a little less proficiency across the board.

But to be fair, kimbo really isnt that good a boxer either. He uses head movement, but its mechanical, not reactive. He’s quick for his size and has heavy hands, that’s about it. A great prospect if he got himself on youtube a decade earlier.

Koscheck’s problem is that he forgets that he is well-rounded…and when faced with someone who is a more proficient striker,he wants to trade with them and forgets he can takedown/outwrestle anyone not GSP(or maybe Fitch). [/quote]

He definitely needs to up his fight IQ and keep the bloodlust in check. He is, IMO, one of the most improved fighters that went through the TUF system.

Can that even be taught? Some of these guys get in there and do whatever they want despite what their corner tells them.