T Nation

Over the Counter Anti E


#1

Hi Team

Just started TRT, getting massive fatigue - looking for over the counter anti e to see if it helps

I’ve found DIM and ACACETIN, I’ve purchased some ACACETIN to try - has anyone had good experience in this reducing E2 levels?

Thanks


#2

If you just started TRT, get your doc to prescribe arimidex.

Post your labs, including E2.


#3

I could not tolerate RX ai’s. Gave me massive headaches, even with 1/18th of a mg or aromasin.

I currently am going to try Arimistane (Not arimidex, or exemestane), which is what was in the old Erase, its actually in the mail today. I have taken Erase Pro in the past, which I believe actually uses abieta-8 11 13-trien-18-oic acid . ON Erase pro, I had my levels checked and it did lower my estrogen by around 8-10 points, if I remember correctly.

I only use 50mg TRT a week, split into 2 doses 3.5 days apart, and my estrogen after 2 weeks with no AI was 33. So its not crazy high, but its enough to give me a few symptoms, puffy hands/feet (12 or so hours after injection) difficult to keep erection, difficulty ejaculating.

Im hoping I will be able to use a small amount of Arimistane as my AI, and eventually hope to drop enough weight that I wont need the AI.

There are a few other options for OTC AI, like I mentioned before, Arimistane, or abieta-8 11 13-trien-18-oic acid (which is in erase pro plus), Foremestane (I don’t really know much about this one).

OTC wont help if your E2 is really high, so you need to check levels.


#4

I don’t have much labs to post - I only have the lab test prior to starting TRT.
I’m going to get more test done next week, however the Dr only approved checking PSA, Testosterone and Blood Count

The Dr refused to check DHT, E2, DHEA or SHBG, and then told me that TRT should give me energy so if its making me tired then the only reason is that actually my T levels are normal and my symptoms must be something else

Testosterone 9 nmol/L (8-29)
FSH (Follicle Stimulating Hormone) 3 IU/L (2-12)
LH (Luteinizing Hormone) 4 IU/L (2-9)


#5

How much testosterone are you taking a week? You can also get labs done privately, I believe through privatelabs.com or something. Your doctor sounds like a moron. I know when I went to my endo, I went prepared, notes, studies. Showed them I knew what I was talking about, and the reasons I wanted e2, shbg and DHT checked. Sometimes it will help, other times they will be stubborn. You could always bring in your outside labs and show him IF your e2 is what is causing your fatigue. Are you having any other symptoms?


#6

Its my first time trying TRT - its Reandron/Nebido, its a once every 12 week injection.

I’m at the end of week 3 now after my first injection

I’m seeing a Urologist, because my GP warned me away from Endo’s in my country - they said the Endo’s will never prescribe TRT here unless the bloodwork shows that you are completely shutdown and then they will want to keep testing you for another 6-12 months after that to check that you are not abusing other drugs, all that before looking into prescribing TRT.

The Urologist was quick to prescribe TRT because the bloodwork came back with a reading of 9nmol/L where as for my age the average number should be 25, but does not seem interested in my side effects and just told me maybe I should stop TRT without doing any further investigating


#7

I would really love to see the hormone levels over that 12 weeks. They are probably giving you about 1000mg of testosterone. And it is suppose to evenly enter your bloodstream over that 12 weeks. My guess is that it is not so even and you are overdosed the first two weeks, driving your E2 levels through the roof. so you would feel great, then feel horrible, then start to feel good then blaw need a new shot.

I’m basing my guess on the fact that testosterone cypionate is said to last two weeks. But if you do that, you get exactly the effects I described, just over a two week period. Testosterone cypionate actually works best when taken twice a week. Maybe once a week, but doing it as the FDA says you should. That is only done by idoits


#8

Your thoughts align with what I’ve felt as well - I think the fatigue is starting to slowly improve, but I’m aso trying the acacetin so maybe thats helping. I had a huge boost to libido in the 2nd week after the injection but now its gone back to normal at the end of week 3.

I’m going to see the Urologist in just over 1 week again which is when im supposed to get my booster shot - I’m going to try and convince him to do get some more item tested and give me referal forms to get the bloods tested more often, as you say after the next injection I’d like to be getting the blood tested at max every 2nd week so that over 12 weeks I’ll have at least 6 blood work tests done and some decent data to analysis whats happening over that time.

I strongly suspect based on what I’d read that 12 weeks is way too long between shots as well, so that will be helpful in determining if T levels drop a lot after week 8 which is what Im expecting based on what Ive read from others using this - I think very little people can maintain ideal T levels with 1 injection every 12 weeks.

Obviously the ideal situation is to get a programme that keep levels at ideal levels 24/7


#9

Actually I did have some blood done yesterday - now this is really interesting…

Testosterone 11 nmol/L (ref 8-29), (was 9 before TRT)
PSA 0.8 (was 0.9 before TRT)
Oestradiol 106 pmol/L (ref <161)

3 weeks after a 1000mg injection of T Undecanoate my T levels have increased from 9 to 11…

Is it possible the nurse messed up and most of the injection was absorbed into the blood? Im struggling to understand how my levels have barely changed after that…


#10

Optimal E2 on TRT is 80pmol/L or 22 pg/ml
TT is way to low

More info in my post in your other thread, your case is now spit.


#11

I would like to think a nurse would not inject into a vain. And you would have had symptoms of that if that happened. But the fact is that your Test is far to low.

Best to pick which one of your posts you want to keep using and stick with it


#12

Thanks guys, im happy to just stick to this thread.

I did not seem to get any immediate side effects which you would expect with injection into the vein, perhaps something else is at play - unsure then will need to speak to the Urologist I guess, I can’t think of a good reason why the T would stil be low after that injection which is supposed to last 12 weeks

I also got another result back which is the MCV reading of 77fL (ref range 80-99). I’ve actually recieved the same result now for 6 months. Apparently this means my red blood cells has an “abnormal shape and small size”. Can this affect T levels? Apparently a low MCV can be due to iron deficiency, however my last Ferriton gtest was 208 ug/L (ref range 20-320) so well within the range… so im clueless as to why my MCV number is always low


#13

Ok, did some published research - apparently having Low T makes men 5 times more likely to also be anaemic, even when in the blood iron stores look normal. This should help me to convinve the Urologist that my body is actually low on T, I need to check records with my GP but I think I’ve had normal Iron readings with low MCV going back more than 12 months. Annoys me that the GP told me not to worry about it when ive probably had Low T for quite some time now. Guess I’ll find out of thats the case, boosting T level should increase MCV if that is whats causing me to be anaemic


#14

T is sometimes ‘indicated’ to treat male anaemia.


#15

Hey KSman, would you happen to know if a significant amount of cortisol gets into the bloodstream after a cortisone injection and how long it can last for?

I’ve had two cortisone injections, 1st 12months ago for a tendon injury in an elbow and another 6 months ago for a shoulder injury. Can these injections be a cause of Low T that I see in the bloodwork?

Cheers


#16

Based on my experiences and T lebvels with nebido I’m gona give Sustanon a try.

After several Nebido injections I experience the same thing - I feel great for 2 weeks and then it start dropping, by week 4 i’m back to shit again and the I can’t get a Nebido injection every 2-3 weeks because over time the levels may build up too fast, every 2-3 weeks is what someone trying to do a body building cycle would use


#17

You ideally want to have a couple of overlapping injections getting absorbed for steadier levels.


#18

Some updates for this

Now onto 4th Nebido injection, being increasing the frequency with the Doc and feeling better for longer, down to getting it at 8 weeks so will see in 7 weeks how the levels are looking, they are slowly going up the last blood test at 8 weeks after the last injection showed up 17.5nmol, better than the 11nmol at the end of the first injection and the 16nmol at the end of the 2nd.

Still not on HCG or Anti-E, Doc won’t prescribe either, not worried anyway if anything my E might drop down a bit low as I’m getting dry skin for a couple weeks after the injections.

Here’s some interesting changes in bloods over time with the latest tests, my RBC is slightly high but Doc didn’t seem interested at all, also TSH has decreased significantly over time but he didn’t even want to discuss that sugesting I speak to my GP, estrogen (at least when ive done the tests) seems unchanged for the most part

From my spreadsheet I keep of the results, this is the overal change from December just before the first injection to 1 week before the 4th injection

First number is December, 2nd number is 1 week ago with units and reference range, sorry its messy the formatting doesnt copy over well

COMPLETE BLOOD COUNT
UNITS RANGE
Haemoglobin 155 164 g/L ( 130 - 175 )
RBC (Red Blood Cell) 5.84 6.09 x10e12/L (4.30 - 6.00)
HCT (Hemocrit) 0.45 0.48 L/L ( 0.40 - 0.52 )
MCV 77 78 fL ( 80 - 99 )
MCH 26.5 26.9 pg ( 27.0 - 33.0 )

SERUM B12 & FOLATE

B12 428 608 pmol/L (170-600)
Folate 54 49 nmol/L (5-45)

DIABETIC PROFILE

HbA1c 30 30 mmol/mol (<41)

THYROID FUNCTION

TSH 2.3 1.3 mIU/L (0.3 - 4.0)

LIPID PROFILE

Cholesterol: 4.3 4.6 mmol/L ( < 5.0 )
Triglyceride: 1.6 1.1 mmol/L ( < 2.0 )
HDL Cholesterol: 1 1.04 mmol/L ( > 1.00 ) L
LDL cholesterol: 2.6 3.1 mmol/L ( < 3.4 )
Chol/HDL Ratio: 4.3 4.4 ( < 4.5 )

FERRITEN 208 185 ug/L (20 - 320)

RENAL FUNCTION

Sodium 141 140 mmol/L (135 - 145)
Potassium 4 4.6 mmol/L (3.5 - 5.2)
Creatinine 84 81 umol/L (60 - 105)

LIVER FUNCTION

Total Bilirubin: 11 16 umol/L ( < 25 )
Alk. Phosphatase: 55 51 U/L ( 40 - 110 )
GGT: 26 25 U/L ( < 60 )
ALT: 37 37 U/L ( < 45 )
Total Protein: 74 78 g/L ( 66 - 84 )
Albumin: 43 45 g/L ( 32 - 48 )
Globulin: 31 33 g/L ( 25 - 41 )

HORMONES

Testosterone 9.6 17.5 nmol/L (8-29)
Oestradiol (Estrogen) 106 101 pmol/L (<160)
PSA (Prostate Health) 0.9 0.8 ug/L (0-2.5)