T Nation

Outlaw way

Have never been a big crossfit fan, but came across this, and his results speak for themselves. My wife started the program 2 weeks ago. Even though it is labeled as crossfit, it is a structured program with the intention of preparing crossfit athletes for the games. Not looking for some approval, just some information and a talking point for the forum. Here is the link.

That’s cool.

Why are you posting this in the o-lifting forum?

Because, his athletes are putting up pretty good oly numbers.

[quote]coldhands wrote:
Because, his athletes are putting up pretty good oly numbers. [/quote]

That’s cool.

What’s “pretty good”? And what can we take from that site that will help us all become better at the olympic lifts? How can we be certain that those “pretty good” oly numbers are the result of their program, and not just a side effect of having athletes who are already pretty strong, explosive and coordinated? What can we take from a site that, from a cursory glance, seems incredibly dedicated to making people better at competitive Crossfit, and apply to our own training in achieving bigger snatches and clean and jerks? Also, why am I being such a prick about this?

Also, is it wrong of me to feel a little joy inside every time I hear of how someone else has discovered that the best way to train for competitive Crossfit is not by doing Crossfit?

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

Also, is it wrong of me to feel a little joy inside every time I hear of how someone else has discovered that the best way to train for competitive Crossfit is not by doing Crossfit?[/quote]

Naa, it’s kind of like how the best way to train for weightlifting is to get really fucking strong at the powerlifts and then transition into some plyos.

Hey bud, I am just putting the info out there, do what you want with it. I would say a guy that weighs 220 snatches 300 and c&j 400 is pretty good, so is a girl that weighs 121 and c&j 200, with neither focusing primarily on oly lifting (There are numerous more examples.)Research the information given, come to your own conclusions, and do what you want with the info given. Thats the only reason I posted it. I thought it would another tool or subject matter to discuss.

I had a nice, long, detailed, long-winded response typed out for this but I’m going to try and summarize it in a few points.

  • If you’re posting in the o-lifting forum, try to make the first post of your thread seem at least remotely related to olympic lifting. Comments about the lifts themselves, flexibility/mobility, or high bar back squats generally do the trick.

  • Your 300/400 at 220 guy doesn’t exist, or if he does, he’s not mentioned on the front page. There’s a “may soon become” 300/400 at 220 guy, but that’s a huge difference.

  • I’ve read both the FAQs on the site as well as the Outlaw Doctrine. I’ve come to the conclusion that while the guy behind Outlaw seems pretty intelligent and has enough experience (and a fantastic beard) that I would recommend this to anyone looking to get better at Crossfit or simply get stronger and fitter, I don’t see anything to apply to my own training as an olympic lifter, and I’m not going to go looking through the archives there when I could be researching how the Russians or Chinese train olympic champions, or looking at what Pendlay or the guys down in Shreveport are doing, or even looking at what the Quebecers are doing.

-I also feel (moderately) apologetic about coming across like an asshole.

-ape’s post was funny.

can’t get enough of teh jonty

I loved the “That’s cool” twice when it obviously was very far from cool

I want to start off by thanking you, TheJonty for you short, wait long, or was it short post that was not asshole like, oh wait, it was. I will try to keep mine as long or short as yours, maybe a little more asshole like though. Because that’s cool. Yes granted the 220 guy does not exist yet, but I have no doubt he will. But I see you did not retort on the girls lifting numbers, who has video proof, I believe that puts her in with some of the top American women lifters. But that’s cool.

Because I know you guys love your Chinese, Russian, Bulgarian programs that are so popular. Is it that you guys are a little jealous of the lifting numbers of people that do not train olympic lifting full time? Because as of today you have a 85kg male hi-hang clean and push jerking 300 and a female at 53kg doing with 185. As far as I know those are pretty decent numbers. So the program does have some semblance (you do know what that word means don’t you) to olympic lifting. But hey, that’s cool. I normally do not post on these forums due to this fact right here, I have to entertain assholes and adolescents that fill these places. Instead of reading and looking at the sight and deciding that its not for you and posting nothing, you post bullshit. I doubt I will post anything again.

P.S. I will not be coming back to this posting or forum, so post any responses you want knowing that I will not be reading them, so in essence I do get the last word.

I don’t know why I’m doing this . . .

[quote]coldhands wrote:
I want to start off by thanking you, TheJonty for you short, wait long, or was it short post that was not asshole like, oh wait, it was. I will try to keep mine as long or short as yours, maybe a little more asshole like though. Because that’s cool.[/quote]
Well, I suppose it wasn’t that short, but it was a helluva lot shorter than it was originally going to be. And yes, I’m being an asshole and a pretentious douche. I thought I acknowledged that. Um, deal with it?

[quote]coldhands wrote:
Yes granted the 220 guy does not exist yet, but I have no doubt he will.[/quote]
And I had no doubt Akkaev and Klokov would be battling over world records (or near world record numbers) in London. Oops.

[quote]coldhands wrote:
But I see you did not retort on the girls lifting numbers, who has video proof, I believe that puts her in with some of the top American women lifters. But that’s cool. [/quote]
That was one of the things that got cut when I tried to shorten my last post. I don’t know much about the lighter weight classes in womens weightlifting in the States, but I guess I’ll just have to take your word on that one. I watched the videos, they’re strong, some technical things they could probably work on to lift even more (and perhaps more consistently). I wonder what they’d be lifting if they were committed to o-lifting full time?

[quote]coldhands wrote:
Because I know you guys love your Chinese, Russian, Bulgarian programs that are so popular.[/quote]
I wonder if that has anything to do with the international success that those programs have produced? Granted one may argue that the “Bulgarian” system has been exposed as a true meat grinder that doesn’t work in the absence of banned substances, but I digress.

[quote]coldhands wrote:
Is it that you guys are a little jealous of the lifting numbers of people that do not train olympic lifting full time?[/quote]
I can’t speak for everyone here, but I’m not. As a 105, I’ve done 136/170 in competition and 140/175 in training (should be obvious, but all those numbers are in kilos; sometimes you have to make that distinction with crossfitters). Nothing really spectacular yet, but there’s a few major changes I’ve got to make in my life to promote myself from someone who does this basically for fun, to someone who looks at it like a serious athlete.

[quote]coldhands wrote:
Because as of today you have a 85kg male hi-hang clean and push jerking 300 and a female at 53kg doing with 185. As far as I know those are pretty decent numbers. So the program does have some semblance (you do know what that word means don’t you) to olympic lifting. [/quote]
Yes, those are decent numbers (nice job of updating your examples as they’re posted on the outlaw website, by the way). Yes, the program puts a lot of focus on the olympic lifts (which I like and think is really cool and there’s a well thought out rationale for it). Yes I know what the word semblance means (though to be honest I think you did a poor job of trying to use it in a sentence while getting your point across despite the fact that I think the sentence is technically grammatically correct).

[quote]coldhands wrote:
But hey, that’s cool. I normally do not post on these forums due to this fact right here, I have to entertain assholes and adolescents that fill these places. Instead of reading and looking at the sight and deciding that its not for you and posting nothing, you post bullshit. I doubt I will post anything again. [/quote]
Did you actually read my last post? I looked at the site (note the spelling there). I browsed through the entire front page of workouts. I watched most (if not all) of the videos you keep referring to. I read the FAQs (both the Dumbass Noob and General versions). I read the Outlaw Doctrine. In spite of the sarcastic nature of my “That’s cool” comments in earlier posts, I DO think it’s cool what they’re doing over there. The program seems really well thought out, and I really like the extensive use of the olympic lifts. If I was training for the Crossfit Games I’d jump all over that program in a heartbeat. But I’m not, I’m training to compete as an olympic lifter, and so I’ll spend my time researching programs that have produced national, international, and olympic champions.

[quote]coldhands wrote:
P.S. I will not be coming back to this posting or forum, so post any responses you want knowing that I will not be reading them, so in essence I do get the last word.[/quote]
To be honest I’m mostly posting this for the benefit of myself and any others following along in this conversation. Just want to make sure I am absolutely clear on my position (which I’m not sure is as negative as you think) and I’m almost regretting editing down the massive post I had planned earlier. But if you go back on your word and come back to read this (like I’ve seen countless times on the internet) well, that’s cool too.

Also, getting the last word doesn’t work like that if you’re backing out and refusing to engage. And if getting the last word is a concern for you, if you ever do come back I hope you leave that petulant behaviour behind. You do know what petulant means, don’t you?

I kind of skipped over your comment about “posting nothing” as a valid response when stumbling upon this thread, but if I’d have done that, we wouldn’t have had so much fun in here, now would we? I mean, if you post something expecting discussion, don’t be pissed if it comes under scrutiny. I thought that was kind of the point, though to be fair I’m being a bit of a dick about it.

Coldhands shows off his large vocabulary in a condescending way but spells simple words wrong and demonstrates poor grammar, then lectures about adolescent behavior while completely overreacting to a little bit of criticism. Do you really expect to get taken seriously, brobeans?

Uuuh how cool this Jonty kid is, his internet hating skills just gets me hard… more people like this to the world!

Hate hate hate! Compete, hate, alfa-male hate!! Jonty jonty jonty, so much better than anyone.

Aw, T-Nation. I’ve missed you.

Jeeze, if you think Jonty is being a dick think about what would happen if I went to a Crossfit fourm and posted “the best way to get good at crossfit is to snatch and clean and jerk heavy every day”. They’d abuse the hell out of me…

I looked at the website and it looked sh1t for olifting in my opinion. I suppose coldhands got a discussion though.

Outlaw programming is great, and works. Don’t do it for more than 3 months running. That’s my advice.

I think the Outlaw has its place.

It may work for some and not for others.

Workouts though take an average of 2.5 hours at least from the guys I know that follow.

The guys that do follow say they get results out of it and improvements in their Olympic Lifts, simply because this is all they’re doing.

To a point, I can see why the Crossfit people are putting up decent numbers in the Olympic lifts. What I’ve been reading that’s interesting is, most countries as part of their prep for Olympic lifters, put the kids through gymnastics training first. Just general stuff. Even Shane Hamman, for example, people say “Oh, he could squat 1000lbs” or whatever, but he was capable of a backflip at like 300+ lbs and had a gymnastics background. Gymnastics background pretty much beats everything. So Crossfit is useful in that it does give people a bit of gymnastic type training. I know in my experience, the gymnastic background trumps a lot. My sister was a gymnast for 2 years in elementary school, and 2 years in middle school. She could overhead squat to full depth with her heels on the ground on her second try, just with a broomstick, but still. She’s completely out of shape now, but even being completely out of shape is able to do what took me about a month of semi-serious trying to figure out. If I recall correctly, Lydia Valentin was a gymnast when she was younger, too.

But yeah, basically, people don’t see the real programs Olympic lifters actually do. They see the end programs, ie, the Bulgarian Abadijiev program, but don’t see the many years of athletic experience the lifters had before. So in some ways, Crossfit is good as it intends to actually replicate that. This program here does seem pretty good, it’s narrowly focused enough on Olympic lifting, but still has enough gymnastic type stuff mixed in. I’d like to try it, but I suck at bodyweight exercises, I can squat and deadlift a decent amount (considering) but have a rather imbalanced body. I’m a guy and have like 25 inch thighs and 13 inch arms.

[quote]spacechappie wrote:
To a point, I can see why the Crossfit people are putting up decent numbers in the Olympic lifts. What I’ve been reading that’s interesting is, most countries as part of their prep for Olympic lifters, put the kids through gymnastics training first. Just general stuff. Even Shane Hamman, for example, people say “Oh, he could squat 1000lbs” or whatever, but he was capable of a backflip at like 300+ lbs and had a gymnastics background. Gymnastics background pretty much beats everything. So Crossfit is useful in that it does give people a bit of gymnastic type training. I know in my experience, the gymnastic background trumps a lot. My sister was a gymnast for 2 years in elementary school, and 2 years in middle school. She could overhead squat to full depth with her heels on the ground on her second try, just with a broomstick, but still. She’s completely out of shape now, but even being completely out of shape is able to do what took me about a month of semi-serious trying to figure out. If I recall correctly, Lydia Valentin was a gymnast when she was younger, too.

But yeah, basically, people don’t see the real programs Olympic lifters actually do. They see the end programs, ie, the Bulgarian Abadijiev program, but don’t see the many years of athletic experience the lifters had before. So in some ways, Crossfit is good as it intends to actually replicate that. This program here does seem pretty good, it’s narrowly focused enough on Olympic lifting, but still has enough gymnastic type stuff mixed in. I’d like to try it, but I suck at bodyweight exercises, I can squat and deadlift a decent amount (considering) but have a rather imbalanced body. I’m a guy and have like 25 inch thighs and 13 inch arms. [/quote]

Like I said I think it has its place.

The workouts take forever.