T Nation

Other Options to Pharma AI's for TRT (Zinc, DIM, Arimistane)?


#1

Reaching out to you guys here because I’m searching for some personal experiences with alternate AI options.

Quick break down: I take 20mg TRT sub q every 3.5 days. Total 40 a week. This puts me at a nice 400-500 trough level, which is fine for me right now, Any more Test and I start having high BP and adrenaline issues.

This is a good level for me, and I know because when I was taking Aromasin or Arimidex, I was having major morning erections, sometimes erections that would be coming and going all day, randomly. (When taking AI’s I was keeping e2 in 22-26 range, but I know I went low a few times) So I know my Testosterone is in a good range. My issue is with Using those two AI’s. They both seem to be giving me massive headaches. Doesn’t seem to matter how little I use, I seem to get that headache behind the eyes (feels dry) dull, constant.

I have completely stopped the Aromasin for now and my headache has gone away, and currently im using Zinc to try and control my E2. I am going to get labs in a few days to see where it is at, but symptoms wise, I know im a little high.

Difficulty keeping erection, difficulty ejaculating, no morning wood at all. No Libido.

The zinc doesn’t seem to be putting me where I want to be, and I would honestly love to NOT take an AI, (which is my ultimate goal, trying to lose some extra weight, I am not very overweight at all though)

I wanted to know if anyone else had experience using DIM, Calcium D-Glucarate Sp , or Arimistane (which I recently started reading about) . Supposedly arimistane acts in the same way as Exemestane, in that it is a suicidal inhibitor.

I use to take Erase pro when I would use DAA and that always helped me lower my estrogen without making me feel crappy, but im not sure about using something like that long term with TRT. Any help would be appreciated. Will post my labs when I get them.


Doc is Uninformed, Probably Doing It Wrong. Help Me Correct Her
#2

I have had good success using Nature’s Way Dim Plus. It is even too strong for me. I take a small fraction of the recommended dose. I don’t have labs, because I have a doctor who doesn’t care about e2. I just use a combination of morning wood and the ring test to determine the correct dose. If I have no morning wood and my wedding ring feels tight, I increase the dose. If I have no morning wood and my wedding ring slides off my finger, I lower the dose. I currently have it dialed in pretty nicely.


#3

Have you tried your low dose ai right before bed to curb your headaches but also keep your e2 controlled? Also how low of a dose have you tried?

You could also try injecting 10mg testosterone every other day in an attempt to further reduce T to E conversion.


#4

Also make sure your liver and gut are as optimal as possible as they’re both responsible for clearing estrogen from our systems.

I’m editing this post to allow for more information. I reduced my need for an AI by a factor of nearly half. I inject 50 mg test cyp EOD and take around 1/9th of a mg of anastrazole EOD as well.

Read these below as well:

https://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/tip-eat-sauerkraut-even-if-you-hate-it2

https://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/the-anti-inflammatory-diet2

https://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/balance-gut-bacteria-get-leaner-get-happier1

https://www.t-nation.com/diet-fat-loss/the-scary-truth-about-probiotics2


#5

Could you give me some info on your protocol and how much DIM you are taking.

The headaches seem to be throughout the day when I used it. Maybe it was bad Ugl stuff, both my products came from same company, both seem to cause headaches. I’ve used as little as 1mg aromasin (tried arimidex too) and still had HA. I recently stopped all AI to see if HA cleared up. Maybe unrelated, I have a cold right now so I have a HA on and off, but I’ll know for positive if It’s the AI once I am better. I also have some aromasin from a different ugl lab. I may try in the future.

Had E2 checked after being off AI for 2 weeks and it was 33. That’s a little high for me, but besides a little puffy nipples (puberty gyno that high E2 inflames) and some mild water retention in my feet, I have good sexual function and libido. No morning wood thoigh, my sweet spot is around 23-25.

I bought some erase pro, I’ve used it in the past when I use to try DAA. Had good results with it. Since it’s suicidal, (main ingredient Is arimistane) I was thinking of dosing it maybe on the day of injection only at first. Then do labs
After a few weeks. I have a pretty good feel for what my E2 is generally.

Thanks for all the gut info. I’m going to read those links when I’m not feeling like crap.


#6

So a quick update. I determined that I am an extreme over responder to AI’s. I let my e2 normalize, which it was a little high 33. Then I dosed using 1 mg of aromasin, (not a typo). Even though my e2 was 33, 1 mg of aromasin gave me almost instant results in the erection department, (which lets me know its working), however, I determined that it must be working too well, because I also got bad headaches, which I learned are related to lowering e2. Every time I lowered my E2 using an AI, I got a headache. I figure it is because I am an over responder, and I was lowering my e2 too low each time.

Females often experience migraines , right before their meunstral cycle, which drops their estrogen drastically. Doing some research, I found that the trigeminal nerve, which is behind your eyes ,jaw, and nose area, is loaded with estrogen receptors. So, when your e2 Is dropped too low, you get a headache, that correlates with your trigeminal nerve.

Unfortunately I had to figure this out the hard way. I recently adjusted my dosing to .25mg taken with my injection (again this is not a typo) . I currently take 25mg injections, twice a week for 50mg a week total test. I still have a headache currently, and figure it may stick around for a while while my estrogen is balancing out.

I thought id condense some of this information because I could not find many other men who experienced the same issue. Searching the internet, I could only find 1 or 2 other people who had similar symptoms to myself, mainly the headache behind the eyes. Dull, constant. Goes away after sleeping for a while, but creeps back.

Hope this helps anyone out there going through this.


#7

Ive had similiar experiences with anstrazole. Even taking 1/8th mg EOD at a time. Because anastrazole has a 24h half life, I currently dose 1/19th of a mg every day using a dropper with anastrazole that I’ve dissolved in vodka. I can still feel some tension behind my eyes and in the back of my neck but its tolerable.


#8

I’m glad I’m not the only one. For a while I was wondering if it was the test and I was worried, which is what got me looking at that nerve. A little reading and it’s obvious that either the fluctuation or actual lowering of E2 causes the trigeminal nerve to be agitated.

Anyway I’m starting to lose the headache. Took .25mg aromasin Monday with my 25mg injection. I may get to your situation, where it’s just that tolerable disturbance. I’ll keep updating. Have another dose and shot on Thursday afternoon. On a positive, I did have night time erections and AM erections after that .25mg dose.


#9

Using zinc 50mg/copper 2mg, boron 3mg, and DIM, I was able to get my E2 from 33 on no AI to 16. I was thinking I was still a little high per my morning woods, guess I need to cut my DIM dose down and retest.

Hope this helps. I couldn’t tolerate pharma AI. But DIM seems to be just as efficient in my case. Natures way, started with 2 in AM and 2 in PM. Had to cut back and still got the lower numbers for estradiol.


#10

AI’s aren’t even needed for many people.


#11

Just wanted to update. Still using DIM (two caps at night) Zinc, and TMG along with the DIM for liver clearance. Solid morning woods, night erections, sex dreams, wood almost a nuisance at night sometimes(haha). Libido is great. I was using the reccomended 4 pills, two in AM and two in PM. My morning wood was there but kinda weak, lowered libido, but still OK. Thought I was still high, but had labs done and my E2 was 16, so I backed off and I found the sweet spot. Going to get E2 checked in about 2 weeks, will post value.


#12

Be careful , your E2 is way to low at 16.

E2 below 21pg/ml is worst than an 80 year old and can lead to bone loss and risk of clotting.

Ideally e2 should be in the optimal range between 25-30

As we age e2 naturally declines in men which is the main cause of osteoporosis in older men.

Here are the average e2 ranges for men:

Age : Average
20-29: 28.0 pg/ml
30-39: 25.7 pg/ml
40-49: 24.7 pg/ml
50-59: 22.1 pg/ml
60-69: 21.5 pg/ml
70-80: 21.9 pg/ml

Source:
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Normal_Estradiol_Levels_Men.aspx


#13

Yes, in one of my earlier posts I realized after a blood test and halved my dose.


#14

Hey man. I’m very keen to hear your updates.

I too am an over responder to Arimidex. I got down to dissolving it in vodka and taking 0.0625mg (not a typo) EOD/E3D. At first it works well for a couple weeks, then my joints start clicking and popping, and my libido disappears. I haven’t bothered with Aromasin.

Without the AI on two seperate tests I saw my E2 around 50 and then 78pg/ml. I later realised this wasn’t the sensitive test, and have found a provider who does sensitive. Is yours sensitive LC/MS? I’m keen to use some Zinc + DIM and see what my E2 sits at in about a months time when my next bloods are scheduled.

I have 50mg Zinc and 2mg copper on hand (although a supplement I’m already taking has 25mg Zinc/1mg copper so this would make it 75mg zinc and 3mg copper) wonder if that’s too much? I also have Natures way indolplex dim on hand, which I bought before the Arimidex. Would you recommend starting on 1 in AM and 1 in PM to see how it goes? How quickly does the DIM work and what did you notice personally?

Right now I’m recovering from an E2 crash, my joints are so clicky but my erections are still available although not much libido. So I probably won’t touch the DIM until I feel better.


#15

Hey Briggsey,

What is your protocol like? Testosterone dose, frequency of injections?

When I first started TRT, I tried arimidex and had horrible headaches, and I completely tanked my e2. It was unreadable, below 10. At some point I switched to aromasin and was having similar issues (not to mention that aromasin causes hair loss through its metabolite). Recovering from my E2 being tanked took several weeks and was an absolute nightmare. Extreme fatigue, anxiety, heart murmurs, no libido. Generally feeling like dog shit.

There is a great read somewhere around here by a dude named PM Gamer, and it goes over how to manage your estrogen using your morning erections. Its how I manage mine, with the periodic blood test obviously.

I take 1 50mg zinc/2mg copper everyday and also 3mg of boron, both can have anti-estrogen properties. But I think the main thing that worked for me was the DIM. I had an e2 of 33, which isn’t awful, but was definitely causing erection issues, lower libido ect. Once I got on the DIM, 2 pills in AM and 2 pills in PM my e2 went down in probably 2 weeks. Then I started to get INSANE night and morning woods, libido was insane, walking around the house with a half chub all day for no reason.

Then the woods got weaker and I thought maybe my E2 was a little high, well I did a blood test and saw that it was actually a little low. So that helped me out a lot.

My biggest tells are: E2 too low, ability to get erection, but inability to ejaculate easily

                               E2 too high,  Soft erection, low libido, cant ejaculate because of weak erection.

But I use my morning wood strength to determine if I am either high, or low. If its not a diamond cutter when I wake up, I know I’m a little high, or low. Then i usually self examine (ahem) and if i fall into one of the above categories, i have a general idea of i am too high or too low. Then i either back off the DIM or increase, for a day or so. Once you get dialed in with it, its actually really responsive. I felt my e2 was high, so i took 4 pills at night, and it brought my e2 down by the next morning.

I always consider sleeping as a reset. When you wake up, you’ll know where you are regarding your estrogen. As far as messing with your estrogen, i would wait until you start getting high estrogen sides or get a lab to confirm high estrogen.

I don’t mean “wait” until you get high estrogen sides. But if you start having a soft dick, oily skin, crying for no reason, hella emotional, dick and testicles all sucked up into your body. Your E2 is getting high. Star the DIM. Id start slow like your plan, one in AM one in PM. Or, i just take 2 pills at night right now.


#16

Hey alphagunner,

I’m actually not on TRT. I was taking Arimidex by itself. My testosterone was naturally high (at total levels 1100+) always above the ranges with high natural Estradiol. Docs thought I was taking some type of steroid.

Yeah recovering from a suicide inhibitor like Aromasin would take longer. Also I’ve seen PMgamers post many times, also talked to him directly. The problem with me is that I’m not on TRT, it seems the rules are slightly different. Morning wood is a good indicator but not always, but I can tell you that when my E2 was <10pg/ml I was still getting strong morning erections. Same with this time, not every morning but it can still happen.

After you started noticing wood disappearing what did your E2 come down to from 33pg/ml?

Low E2 for me = low libido, weak erections, some morning wood, piss a lot, dry mouth, night sweats, insomnia, clicking joints.

High E2 for me = low libido, weak erections, no morning wood, severe bloating, very moody (PMS like), low energy (have to sleep after work every day).

It’s interesting how people experience diff high/low E2 sides.

Biggest telltale sign for low E2 for me is if I leave my leg in one position (bent) for like 20 seconds and then I stretch it out or get up my knees crack and click. Also when walking my left leg clicks.

I’m guessing you do the sensitive E2 test? Also I experience sore aching left testicle (no varicocele) do you at all? Doc said it was cos I’m pumping out a lot of test. Who knows.