Orlando Terror Attacks

I had heard the permits for CCM were up by something around triple in LA, doesn’t surprise me since Dems don’t give a fuck about the LGBT community. They chose radical Islam instead.

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Well of course they did. They aren’t afraid of homosexuals. They are terrified of Islam, and maybe secretly crave dominance.

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Mateen not a homo

Isn’t that what the left does almost every time?

Sort of like the origination of the word “homophobia”. If you do not fully embrace the lifestyle you are branded “homophobic” which essentially means that you are afraid of those who are gay.

No one wants to be labeled as being afraid of gay of folks so the term, as inaccurate as it is, stuck and really helped their movement. Brilliant marketing.

Attempting to dress up the shooter as a closet gay was also brilliant…a lie for sure. But, I have to admire the never ending push from the left (and those in the gay community) to continue to push their agenda no matter what the circumstances.

The right needs to take a page out of their book.

I almost fell over when he said this on his show last night.

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Everytime the left wants to stop a conversation that they don’t like they take the topic and turn it into a phobia. I am getting leftaphobia. There is no cure, stupidity scares me.

It’s clear that the terrorist in Orlando didn’t know much about guns either. An AR-15 was not the perfect weapon for a close quarters mass shooting. It shoots a .22 caliber round at high velocity. In close quarters, it goes right through you and leaves a little hole. If it’s not a direct shot on a major organ or artery, you have a strong chance of survival. That’s why people with four gunshot wounds are going to make full recoveries. If he used a .45 with a hollow point round? Almost every hit would be a kill shot. You hit a shoulder, you lose an arm. It wouldn’t leave a little hole through you, it would start a rather large hole and rip every tendon, organ, bone, or muscle within an inch of the entry point. And that is if the bullet did not change trajectory in the body.
In close quarters you want a slow, heavy round. Not a fast light one.

I asked a marine why they use such a small round. His explanation made sense. He said “A dead soldier takes one soldier out of the fight, and injured one takes at least 2.”

Are you talking about a .45 caliber rifle round?

I am not trying to speak for Pat and forgive the interruption, but, his point about CQB is accurate. Close Quarter Battle, is, well, simply close ,and you need a weapon that is light, easy to maneuver, easy to control, stable enough to perform accurrate shooting, and packs at least enough power to cease the threat. For experienced , trained people, a two shot selection burst is ideal. I will be the first to admit, I am biased (from experience) to large slow rounds, like the .45 or 10mm, especially in the H&K frame. You can carry multiple slim magazines without any problem and have the ability to move fast and kill efficiently. Remember this is close quarters, not, a rifle for urban combat, but, a specialized tool for inside rooms.

Also, the combat shotgun, with an extension magazine carries a tremendous killing capability, each double -ought buck round has seven .32 caliber lead balls, just like the seven shots in a .32ACP

pistol and if you think a trained person cannot load and fire a shotgun with tactical speed. watch the video.

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Ooooooo, Baby…!

Gun Porn!

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Tactical considerations* are one thing, but it seemed Pat was saying that a 45(ACP, presumably) would do more damage at close range than a 223. I’m not 100% sure, but I’m pretty confident that a rifle round trumps a pistol round at any range.

*I doubt the shooter had many tactical concerns-he was shooting at unarmed folks who would most likely either be trying to escape or lying down and giving up.

You have to think of velocity here.

Small bullet, spinning like a mother from a tight twist barrel, with 3x the velocity of a .45… I don’t know that flesh at 20 feet is going to break up the bullet all that much. That’s a lot of force.

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We kill a lot of people with 5.56…

certainly. We’re discussing what’s going to be better given a choice, at close quarters.

I wouldn’t turn down a SBR chambered in 556 in favor of a knife, and would likely run it a lot better than a shotgun, given my time behind the trigger on a shotty is quite limited…

But we’re nerd-ing out on which cal is best suited for a situation.

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If 45ACP and 223/556 act the same(i.e., the same way as a knife) in flesh, then the 45 should certainly be about twice as effective. I believe(but am not positive and don’t have the desire to look into it much right now) that hydrostatic shock occurs at rifle velocities. Regardless, I think I will choose the 45 over the 223 if I am ever given a choice regarding the round with which I am shot.

Pat also mentioned someone surviving after being shot four times and seemed not to believe that could happen with a handgun round. I imagine that many police officers across America could tell tales about plenty of people surviving multiple handgun hits. If nothing vital is struck, you’ve got a pretty good chance of surviving.

At 30 feet, I don’t believe they will is what I’m saying.

I’m not an expert, here by any stretch, but I’m pretty sure you’re much more likely to get a clean and crisp through and through with a 223 at 30 feet than you are a 45.

Once you hit 30 yards, I’d take the rifle 1000 times out of 1000.

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Would it depend on ammo? US military forces are restricted to FMJ rounds because of the Geneva Conventions. It seems a lot of counter-terrorism forces opt for pistol and PDW caliber weapons when carrying out operations in CQB. Over penetration seems to be a concern.

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certainly.

But I don’t think the boat tail hollow points I load for target are going to actually expand at close range like a pistol caliber will. I could very well be wrong, but the speed these rounds are coming out of the muzzle (which is between 1.5 and 3 MOA worth of reduction compared to factory “green tip”) implies to me that it would still be inferior to pistol cal at close distances.

The hollow point isn’t very large at all.

Good discussion and there are threads on the Combat Forum addressing a lot of these points. From my personal experience ,there are many components in selecting a weapon for a specified mission. Firearms are like hand tools, you try to select the correct one for the job. What I would pick for a room assault would not be the same thing for raiding a poppy field in Helmand. I have seen people killed with about everything from a Hellfire missle to a .25ACP. I have at various times carried the gambit from FN-P90, to a Russian paratrooper AK, to a .300 Mag. Some factors to consider:

Accurate shooting triumphs everything, put whatever bullet/caliber you are using in the right place and it will work.

Badguys equipped with military body armor and suicide vests require extremely accurate shooting. Example: How many saw the video of the Turkish airport asshole being shot in the leg, fall on the floor, lay there for about 30 seconds, before he detonated? The Turkish security forces saved many lives with their response, but, I was amazed there was no follow up head shot, especially since this was not in the states. Terrorist goes down , you always shoot him in the head to make sure. (possibly stop a explosion)

Carrying hollowpoints in a pistol is good, but, you need about 1100 FPS for reliable expansion, and, for that you need a longer barrel, 9mm,45ACP, and 10MM usually give good performance from a sub -gun barrell ( 9 to 14 inches average). As far as 5.56, my experience in practical applications, it doesnt really add anything.

Yes, there is always the human factor, I once saw a guy shot seven times with a .357 MAG, run about a 1/4 mile before bleeding out, he was stoked to the gills on PCP. The real Johnny Jihadi’s are high on hate, accurate shooting is a must, since they will do everything to kill you.

For those in a civilian status, pick a weapon that you will practice with, train hard, and be willing to put the bullet where it needs to go. If anyone wishes to discuss various calibers, tactics, and weapons, come over to the Combat Forum. I dont want to be rude and keep hijacking this thread.

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No, just a simple 45 ACP.