Original Nautilus Type Training (Proper Strength Training) and Injuries

Dr. Darden,

i belong to another forum (i won’t disclose the name) that focus’s on Superslow (10-10 cadence), and the biggest subject that keeps being stressed is safety and injuries…and how unsafe and dangerous other ways of training is even the Original Nautilus Protocols, other forms of HIT and Negative is deemed as being unsafe, even 4-4 and 2-4 cadences are unsafe.

This leads to me a curiosity question to you Dr. Darden…What percentage of injuries happened during the early nautilus days at the headquarters that yourself, Arthur, Big Jim and/or other trainers experienced when training athletes or non-athletes or even nautilus facilites around the country

other HIT trainers, please chime in also

thanks, dan

I don’t know if it was the original Nautilus protocols or the protocols themselves in combination with the machines, as several were probably not an optimal tool for some trainees.

The pulldown behind the neck machine was definitely one and that exercise even on non-Nautilus equipment or via pull ups is pretty much gone. Another consideration was Nautilus’ one-size-fits all design. Sure, you could raise or lower the seat but the “arms” were fixed and the width might not have been the best for some people.

I know Ken Hutchins even back in the 1980s/1990s pretty much decreed SuperSlow as the way, the truth and the light and for orthopedic safety, probably true. He spent an entire chapter starting on page 46 of his book picking apart each variant and then on page 66 criticizes recreational sports. (A bit overboard at that point, IMHO.) Yet, in his SS book he describes two trainees that got sick or nearly fainted after a SuperSlow leg press work out (can’t recall which page where this is discussed). So, you’d have to ask: how safe is this? Certainly not something I would think is a good idea.

Drew Baye appears to have picked up Ken’s ideas and is carrying them forward – I don’t know what happened withKen’s partnership with the RenEx** team in Cleveland via Josh Trentine and his group? A lot of activity for a while which included Dr. Doug McGuff at one point. (**Their website hasn’t been updated in several years.)

Pages 151 & 152 of Hutchins’ book is where he wrote about the affects of SS – “Juan” shook uncontrollably per the description after his workout and then needed two hours to recover before he could function again. “Laurie” was a Captain in the Air Force and also had similar post workout experiences. Safe?

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I think the bad blood between Baye and Trentine queered any collaborative work on that front.

McGuff gleefully described one his clients going into symptoms of Shock after a SS workout — rapid HR, clammy cold skin — Not very appetizing!!

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So, how can these guys claim its so safe compared to the original nautical protocols or other even volume type of training

Ah. Didn’t know that.

Agree. Jones had some similar descriptions of Viator after their training sessions…when I read about them, I thought ‘wow, how can I learn to train that hard?’ Now, I see that and think how stupid.

I’d always thought, however the original Nautilus program advocated training until failure but under control. No struggling, jerking, etc., to get that last rep…if you can’t get the final rep under complete control that was failure.

I believe it was, no grunting, grinding, twisting, yelling etc

i also believe Jones pushed Viator to the limit because it was experimental and also because is was for the Mr America competition

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I’m still relatively young at 27 years of age, but I’ve been weight training for 15 of those years. I’ve never had a weight room related injury nor even really come close to one. I’ve always used a normal cadence during my lifting. Generally, explosive concentric and a slowed eccentric.

I’ve done Superslow before as a phase in the “Do the Opposite Routine” from Dr. Darden’s “The New HIT”. It was my least favorite phase, as I found it an extremely boring way to lift. It’s also no fun to lift baby weights, which you basically have to when you’re doing 10 seconds up, 10 seconds down. You basically need a training partner for this style of training too, because it’s hard to gauge Your proximity to failure and there’s a good chance you’re going to fail in the middle of one of these bloated reps, not the end of the world but not exactly convenient either. If you can stomach training in such a boring way and actually make gains from it, I’m sure it’s safe (but so is regular weight training as long as you’re smart and using an appropriate load). As an aside, there aren’t really too many jacked people using this method. With the original Nautilus method, we had guys winning and placing high at top level shows training in that style.

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Yes, i would say the best physiques and strength came from the original principals and cadences of 2/4 and 4/4

imo, superslow has its purpose, i.e. rehabilitation and maybe seniors

Yeah very true. If I were to try to get my grandpa into lifting, I’d consider having him use this method since he hasn’t participated in resistance training in 30-40 years. I don’t hate the method in general, just hate it for my own personal programming.

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Well, just found out that Baye has injured himself…bulging disks in the lower back along with sciatica…either caused by moving some of his weight equipment he has in his studio or by actually performing superslow exercises

begs the question, is superslow really that safe…who knows

Should’ve lifted his equipment with a 10 second cadence lol

Edit: I don’t mean that in poor taste, I actually like Drew and enjoy his content for the most part, even when I don’t always see eye to eye with him. Also, his customer service for his online store is outstanding and he was extremely polite.

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He is a good guy

just wish he would be a little more open minded when it comes to training

to each their own

So, how can these guys claim its so safe compared to the original nautical protocols or other even volume type of training

Drew or Jay can describe this. All you need is to PAY to get on their client list. There you can find out how everyone else is an idiot. Two wannabes with no credentials, but love HRT! Beware!

Hardly, you are indeed fortunate to get any Grandpa to workout with weights. Burdening older people with inane techniques like SuperSlow is unwarranted. Let them lift safely. That is all that is needed.