I see this argument a lot, and while high-er (than low) e2 has tons of benefits it can also come with tons of side effects. While it may be cardio protective at “higher” levels if you can’t live with the side effects are you really benefiting?
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crashed E2 is bad we get that. We NEED sufficient E2, thats it! Why is there always this argument and debate from a certain side where there really shouldnt be one. No one is advocating or wants to crash their E2, no one.
Water retention is caused 20-HETE production that is increased by androgens, NOT by estrogens. Estradiol does increase aldosterone, but this is mitigated by testosterone which reduces it. They work as a tandem. So unless you are a castrated rat with no testosterone, you should not worry about estradiol for blood pressure. Estradiol has even been linked to blood pressure reduction.
The argument that estadiol is cardioprotective is supported by multiple studies, your assumption that the benefits of cut-off at higher levels isn’t. A cut-off point based on plasma levels for a paracrine hormone doesn’t make any sense anyway. Contrary to testosterone, it is a hormone that is produced through conversion locally in the tissues to act locally. So why do you think circulating plasma levels are a good measurement stick? And how do you know a morbidly obese person is supposed to have the same (irrelevant) plasma estradiol levels as a person that isn’t obese?
You are missing the point. The discussion is not about crashing E2. We all agree on that being bad.
It’s about wether you should let the body convert to its own ability or introduce a chemical and disrupt the proces. If you are going to interfere and introduce a chemical, you need to be able to motivate why it is better for longterm health. This is why we have pharmaceutical trials.
Prolactin has a role in electrolyte balance as well therefore causing water retention. I did some Google research but can anyone comment further.
"One mechanism by which estrogens or progesterone may impact physiological systems is through regulation of body fluids and sodium content. "
I know that’s more focused on women
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What would explain the bloating on wet compounds (ones that convert to E2), but lack of bloating on dry compound (ones that don’t convert to E2)? Both wet and dry compounds are androgens, the difference is conversion to E2.
I am just skeptical of your hypothesis given all the evidence to the contrary.
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Just no, stop this nonsense already. Another fucking Guy from this Toxic shit Group, just ban.
Dont listen to him, he has No idea what he is talking about. E2 not causing bloating? Yeah, alright.
Jesus, the shit coming from that clown group just never ends.
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is that true? do you have studies showing cardio protection with levels of e2 higher than say 50pg/mL? or do you have studies showing that any e2 is better than no e2?
Then let’s see the evidence, given there is so much of it. Show me the studies where it shows taking an AI improves water retention and lowers blood pressure.
The cardiovascular benefits of estrogens are well established. Having no or low E2 deprives you of those benefits It also leads to increased body fat and decreased libido, which is exactly what the OP doesn’t want to happen.
Concerning you question if the cardioprotective quality is preserved at higher dosages:
These are studies on genetically male subjects taking very high doses to match the levels of premenopausal women. They all show improvement of vascular function, even though testosterone is being blocked (which is a bad idea of course, but the subjects are transwomen).
I am not saying we should artificially elevate our levels of E2 to that of a woman. I am just providing evidence that even at ridiculously high levels, the effect on cvd is positive.
Can anybody find me a study that shows any benefit to using an AI while on TRT? If not, this discussion is over in my eyes and I see no point in participating any longer.
Hey thank you for the studies. Looking at them I know that if I decide to transition to female I’ll need to make sure I take plenty of estrogen!
Looking at them, a few things stood out. From the conclusion of the second study:
“which may be due to the effects of estrogen excess or androgen deprivation, or both.” Doesn’t seem conclusive to high dose estrogen intake.
From the first study:
“estrogen deficiency primarily accounted for increases in body fat; and both contributed to the decline in sexual function“. Their e2 max level didn’t exceed 40pg/mL. In my book that isn’t high, and the parameter I set in my question was 50pg, so I’m not sure it counts. We already know a deficiency is bad.
Another study:
“Univariate analysis revealed that there was a strong inverse correlation between serum testosterone and flow-mediated vasodilation“. Again, high estrogens or just lack of testosterone? Study doesn’t say, or clarify e2 levels, at least in the abstract you posted.
Do I need to read the rest? Like I said, you’re not gonna find anything that says high e2 (above 50pg/mL) is healthy long term. Hasn’t been done yet in men cos we don’t run e2 that high on a population level.
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You didn’t read well. The first study was about total estrogen suppression, not high dosages. A study you asked for yourself.
Concerning you dismissing the studies on transwomen because the effects could both be attributed to high estrogen and androgen deprivation:
- studies on the cardiovascular benefits of trt obviously show that the cardioprotective benefits are there even in the presence of testosterone.
- We already know menopausal women with low estrogen are at a greater risk of cdv.
Also, all these studies are done with levels equal to that of a premopausal women which is way higher then 50pg/ml.
Now it’s your turn to post studies om the health benefits of an AI in trt. Or are you only going to respond to my studies without contributing any evidence for your claims?
Ok in my case my BP goes up and I get bloated when my E2 is left alone at higher doses, when I take AI that goes away…… many people repeat this.
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Sorry I may have gotten them out of order as I was going back and forth. My apologies. And I didn’t dismiss your studies, I just repeated their conclusions and gave some commentary.
As to your request for studies, I’ve already addressed that: they don’t exist. You have research showing some e2 is better than no e2, but we already know and agree on that. I would like to see a controlled study where men on TRT used an AI to keep e2 levels within a certain range compared to their TT vs those who did not control their e2, but don’t know if that’s been done. Have you seen anything like that? Would you go in with me to fund that study? I think it would be helpful.
Anyway, this horse is long since dead. Neither of us is going to change the others mind, but I do enjoy the discussion.
These fools even deny that taking an AI gets rid of/helps with water retention now.
It is indeed hilarious to see these spergs on the forums, soon enough they Will deny water being wet.
Yeah I am done playing this E2 game. I know myself and it’s either I greatly reduce my dose, thus lowering E2, or take a more liberal dose and use AI to lower E2.
One thing I am also skeptical with some of these guys who say “it just takes time and give it time”, I wonder how bad did they really feel? Because anytime I tried sticking through I am barely functional, and I mean to the point I would lose relations with women, with my job, social life. Etc. and the longer I let it go the worse it got. I am wondering if some of these dudes just had to bare through some minor fatigue and maybe a minor headache at 2 pm. Because I am sorry but how i have felt letting my E2 run rampant I can’t spare another month or 2.
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Its bs. I gave it a very Long time, didnt do shit. Hormonal changes affect the specie rather quickly, riding it out is just stupid.
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Agreed. I tried to give it months, injected SQ/shallow IM, daily shots, etc, everything I was supposed to do to “let my body figure it out” and it just never happened. Now I lowered my dose to where I don’t need the AI, but when I increase it I have no issues adding it in.
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Swoop would you say it’s better to take a tiny small dose ai or a diuretic when needed for water retention? Labs all look good.
I use an ACE or ARB now, I’d have to look it up but part of how they control BP is by tamping down on aldosterone production (what causes water retention). I have to get my e2 really low to do that. When I don’t use the BP meds I do get pretty puffy looking, esp in my face.
I would use the diuretic before I used an AI, since that will handle the symptom you want to take care of while the AI will have more wide-reaching effects.
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Are you still figuring out your dose or just switch it up from time to time between lower dose and higher dose + AI?