T Nation

Order/Disorder of Lifts

Hi guys, long time lurker, only started to post just recently. About to start hitting the gym after a long layoff (basically ground zero)and wanted some comments about the order of the lifts and possibly switching around the order of the lifts. Ordinarily I’d think switch them around a lot but…
-I’m concerned about my forearm strength as a limiting factor in my deadlift and doing other exercises first might compound that; and in general the dead lift by far takes the most out of me
-chest is my weakest area by a good margin, so maybe I should put that towards the front?

So deadlift always first? Bench always first? Mix it up with no regard? Any comments, general inspiration and boobie pictures welcome.

No one is forcing you to deadlift and bench press on the same day.

I’m with BONEZ, why would you deadlift and bench on the same day? Traditional splits would put squats/DLs/bench all on different days, but you combined them? Any particular reason you ran that route, out of curiosity?

If not, I’d advise a simply revising your lineup man

Maybe you should post your routine. I bench and dead on the same day and the dead is the last lift I do.

My thinking was to create a program with a lot of volume. Hit the major muscle groups hard and often with the staple movements: deadlift, squat, military, bench, pull ups, ab roller/hanging leg lifts.

If I were to split up the days I would either a)do 3 lifts a day or b)do a lot of lifts that would seem to be inefficient for someone at my level, i.e. curls, calf raises.

I can understand why you might split squats and deadlifts, but I don’t know why you would feel compelled to split deads and bench unless you are lifting so much that the one exercise drains you to the point where you’d perform any other compound lift at a subpar level (a place I clearly am not at).

If you’re at a ‘subpar level’ then why don’t you just follow a classic beginner program like 5x5?

Also there’s nothing innefficient about curls and calf raises. Obviously the big muscle groups need attention also but biceps and calves (that one is arguable I suppose as many people are born with big calves it seems) should be worked in a good program.

[quote]Jerubaal wrote:

If I were to split up the days I would b)do a lot of lifts that would seem to be inefficient for someone at my level, i.e. curls, calf raises.

[/quote]

Awful mindset

Simply awful.

If you want small arms, continue thinking this way. If you want a proportional body, train your whole damn body.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]Jerubaal wrote:

If I were to split up the days I would b)do a lot of lifts that would seem to be inefficient for someone at my level, i.e. curls, calf raises.

[/quote]

Awful mindset

Simply awful.

If you want small arms, continue thinking this way. If you want a proportional body, train your whole damn body. [/quote]
If you were a coach and somebody new came in to train, would you rather them say ‘hey coach I want to do a bunch of compound lifts’ or ‘hey coach, I want to do bicep curls and calf raises’.

If you have to choose between a compound and these isolation moves, it’s not even an argument. Now you can say that by splitting the workouts (over 3 days by your original post I presume) I could do up to 12 lifts spread over 3 day intervals. Then I would have plenty of room to spread out to every minor muscle group.

My initial qualm with this is that (I’m no expert so I have no idea when enough is enough) just from a common sense standpoint doing several (up to 5 not counting abs) compound lifts at least every other day is likely to elicit a greater metabolic response than a few every day. Even if there was no added benefit of doing them on the same day and the effects were additive, you’d have to train every day to have a chance to break even.

Completely apart from that, you have to realize that I’m going to be relearning some motions and gaining a bit of general strength back until I can kick my training up a few notches. I would rather focus on a few known commodities than risk needlessly complicating my training.

How many times have you read of coaches on this site groaning when someone with glaring deficiencies obsesses over some minutiae. I grant every point that those are two good exercises and probably some of the best after a lot of compounds, but I’m trying to look at the big picture which is to jump start my growth and reignite my muscles. I see the heavy compounds as the ideal way to do that.

You seem to think that doing Squats or deads or bench on the same day is a bad idea and I know that at a certain point it might be impractical due to the huge expenditure of energy it would take for each lift. However as it stands I could bench either a 1 rep max or 25 reps to failure and it would affect my ability to do a deadlift not a whit.

My initial query was to whether I should expend my mental focus, which is necessarily going to drop off after the first exercise and every one thereafter, on chest, which is my weakest area, or the deadlift, arguably the most important lift. And yes, I can do both in the same day- it’s the difference between extremely well and very well.

But if I can do deads at 100% and then bench at 90% and then reverse them the next day, that seems more effective than deads 100% then bench 100% the next day.

I wouldn’t say I’m subpar. I can do over 15 pullups. I’m pretty sure I can do 2x bw deadlift. I would say that I’m a pretty fit individual who hasn’t lifted in a while nor had lifted so heavily in the past that I have much carry over.

Sorry I misread one of your posts, I thought you said that you thought your lifts were at a subpar level. My bad.

Anyways I think you should look at this version of 5x5 since your mindset seems to be right in line with this program’s tenants. The curling assistance is optional lol.

Good luck

[quote]trav123456 wrote:
Sorry I misread one of your posts, I thought you said that you thought your lifts were at a subpar level. My bad.

Anyways I think you should look at this version of 5x5 since your mindset seems to be right in line with this program’s tenants. The curling assistance is optional lol.

Good luck[/quote]

Yeah that’s pretty much what I’ll be doing with a few tweaks for personal taste. I’m going in with a beginner’s mindset but with the advantage of knowing that I know the lifts and can exert my strength in a coordinated fashion so I should make quick gains and progress into a more complicated program eventually.

Thanks for the link, the weight progressions will be useful.

I didnt read past the first paragraph of your post.

Why the fuck would you choose either or?

TRAIN EVERYTHING. It really is that simple. And based on your post “about why you post” I can already tell you put a massive amount of energy into thinking about shit and not enough energy into doing shit. Learning things through personal experience is infintely more valuable than hearing the opinions of random internet people.

I read a bit more.

I absolutely do not think doing squats and bench press on the same day is a bad idea. Do not interpret my posts for anything more than it says in black and white. I said no one is forcing you to do those two things. Thats it. The decision on when to do those lifts has to be made by examining the entire routine i.e frequency, volume, exercise selection, training split.

Anyone with experience is reading your posts and laughing or shaking their heads. You sound like a walking “e-guru” article. You are making claims as if you KNOW they are facts when in reality you are just quoting shit that you have no idea if it is ACTUALLY true.

Deadlifts the most important lift??? Really? For whom? A powerlifter looking for an elite total maybe. A very valuable lift to include in a routine by I would never agree that deadlifting is superior to anything else. If someone has small arms and a great lower back and posterior chain sure deadlifting is not the most valuable thing they can be doing. It’s all relative.

You want to jumpstart your muscle growth. You SAY that. But in reality you want to buy into the hype that compound lifts are somehow more ‘badass’ than isolation exercises. Guess what. Your body has no fucking clue how many joints are involved with the lift. YOU control how the lifts work for you. You do not let the LIFTS control how your body works. If you want your arms to grow you must train them. When you build 18 inch arms by deadlifting and bench pressing you can attempt to refute that.

Why are you so afraid of getting into a solid well rounded program from day 1? Why do you think you NEED training wheels? Whats the downside of training all muscles in your body. I hesistated to ask these questions because I already see that you overthink everything. So I hope answering these questions doesnt set you back a few days in your training.