T Nation

Oral Toxicity = ???

Now we all know that the 17-AA orals are hard on the liver.

But I’m wondering what people’s opinions/knowledge are on just HOW bad they are for the liver.

Say you could compare a weekends binge drinking with a week of taking 75mg/day Dbol, for example, as far as detrimental liver values are concerned…

Any thoughts?

DISCLAIMER: I’m a female and obviously not going to be taking steroids. My partner is not ready for a cycle yet, and is on TRT anyway, so will be injectable. Just posting for the sake of learning!

The harshness of 17-aa orals is highly overstated. However I would not suggest taking that much dbol per day or binge drinking for a week.

I have an upcoming cycle that I plan to take 25 mg of oral winstol per day for between 6-8 weeks. I do not feel that this will have any bad short or long term effects on my liver.

I feel that people who take mild pain killers like ASA, ibuoprofin, acetaminophin (sorry about the spelling) regularly will do far more damage than 17aa orals in low dosages for short durations of time.

[quote]LillGuy001 wrote:
I feel that people who take mild pain killers like ASA, ibuoprofin, acetaminophin (sorry about the spelling) regularly will do far more damage than 17aa orals in low dosages for short durations of time.[/quote]

So would you say that it’s less damaging (17aa’s) more because of the fact that it’s taken for a short duration and then discontinued completely?

It is an interesting question, I have often wondered of the comparable damage to the liver, I have looked on the net for medical studies that compare alcohol and AAS effects on the liver but alas found nothing.

Would be interested if anyone else has though.

I think it is more of a comfort thing, lets say for example I add 3 weeks of Anabol at 50mg ED to a cycle, if I had some kind of stucy result chart that showed this was as damaging to the liver as drinking say 40 units of alcohol over a weekend I would feel more confident and knowledgable about what I was actually doing to my body.

alcohol is a poor comparison to any other chemical when it comes to liver damage. Alcohol damages the liver by converting to fat and being deposited in the liver. This fat is later removed by the body and dealt with some other way. People damage their liver by drinking every day for long periods of time and the body cant get rid of the extra fat, eventually blood flow is cut off to parts of the liver and part of it die and fail. You have to work really hard or have really bad genetics to harm your liver with alcohol.

Not having my facts entirely straight or entirely accurate, i will relate the best i can.

I know several powerlifters who began using dianabol in the early 60’s, one of whom claims to have met mr ziegler personally, although their dosage was low in the 60s, at most 30mg per day, as they competed through the 70s into the early 80’s this dosage went from as high as 100mg per day to as low as 20mg per day when using other substances such as anadrol, winstrol and a variety of injectable gear.
Now bare in mind that these guys did not come off dianabol for nearly 25 years, it was a staple of their routine which only money dictated if they had an off period.

They are all still fit and healthy men, still training - hard, allbeit all on trt now.

Now, i know of only 3 alcoholics, one died of liver and kidney failure after 20 years of heavy drinking, one is still alive - just but it is easy to see that jaundice is well underway to finishing him off, and the other has been drinking heavy daily for 40 years and shows no curent sign of ill health - although he has had a stroke around 10 years ago, but as i am aware no liver damage. Then of course there is the George Best story.

Point is, i think the toxicity of oral steroids is overstated tremendously, i am currently running a 2 on 2 off protocol which combines a total of 100mg daily of 17aa gear.

I am not denying the health implications here, caution should always be applied, we are not born with dianabol in our body (unfortunately) so putting too much in cannot be a good thing long term.

I think that pre-existing liver damage or disease is the key factor to be careful of when using 17AA orals. They have the potential to make a sub par liver very strained. In the case of healthy individuals I don’t feel that there is often permanent or long term damage done to the liver by 17AA orals. However I think that the guidelines of herbal liver support and short duration of use should always be followed to avoid potential problems.

I personally have used anadrol, dbol, tbol, var and winstrol (not at the same time obviously) without any severe sides by adding daily milk thistle and keeping my use under 6 weeks.

What about those users that use for very long periods of time. You know the ones from back in the 70’s that thought that d-bol was a staple in there diet. And those users that take var for just plain health reasons. I can even remember reading about a Dr saying var should be taken for health reasons.

I have heard of people taking for way longer then the prescribed 6weeks and run kind of situation. IMO for certain drugs caution should be used but others are so mild I can’t see why they should be grouped in the same category. Am I a kid playing with a lighter and gas. Or am I spot on the money here?

And if there was some kind of study done on the actual damage to someones liver. There should be more of a scale as to how harmful it really is. Like a grey scale or something.

way overrated. You will not shut down your liver by using d-bol or anadrol. However, I do believe that some here tend to use too much of these compounds. I can grow like crazy from 20 mgs of d-bol or 1/2 an anadrol tab a day(if it is real anadrol).

[quote]HunterKiller wrote:
alcohol is a poor comparison to any other chemical when it comes to liver damage. Alcohol damages the liver by converting to fat and being deposited in the liver. This fat is later removed by the body and dealt with some other way. People damage their liver by drinking every day for long periods of time and the body cant get rid of the extra fat, eventually blood flow is cut off to parts of the liver and part of it die and fail. You have to work really hard or have really bad genetics to harm your liver with alcohol. [/quote]

With this in mind (as alcohol was just an example) what do you think it could be compared to if we could give 17aa’s a general rating?

[quote]dirtbag wrote:
What about those users that use for very long periods of time. You know the ones from back in the 70’s that thought that d-bol was a staple in there diet. And those users that take var for just plain health reasons. I can even remember reading about a Dr saying var should be taken for health reasons.

I have heard of people taking for way longer then the prescribed 6weeks and run kind of situation. IMO for certain drugs caution should be used but others are so mild I can’t see why they should be grouped in the same category. Am I a kid playing with a lighter and gas. Or am I spot on the money here?

And if there was some kind of study done on the actual damage to someones liver. There should be more of a scale as to how harmful it really is. Like a grey scale or something.[/quote]

Some kind of scale would be great, particularly if you gave a rating out of 10 to, say, a particular 17aa ran daily for 6 weeks (at a particular dosage), compared with taking 2 ibuprofen daily for 6 weeks - how would the two compare??

I know it’s not that simple, but to my fairly uneducated mind, I’m trying to figure out just how bad (or not so bad) 17aa’s really are, to the best of our current knowledge.

Thanks for everyones input so far!

I also think the Liver toxicity issues are exagerated but what about the unfavourable change to Lipid Profiles’?

The vague area for me and possibly others is…
How quickly are they affected, for how long, How soon are they reversed and what long term effect is the change likely to have, say after a 4 week or 8 week cycle?

This will of course vary between individuals and I’ve read reports from users (of anavar in particular) who claim to have no/ little change and those where it swings dramatically.

The liver is one thing but the liver does have the ability to regenerate whereas blocked arteries = fucked.

I ran a cycle of var 30mg a day for just 4 weeks about 2 years ago and made great progress with no sides other than ridiculous lower back pumps. I’m keen to do the same again but the ldl/hdl concerns me more as I approach 40.

Any thoughts?

I am on Var right now. I love it. I have been steady slow gains. Which is what I wanted. And been cutting slowly at the same time. I get pumps in my mid to lower back and some charlie horses here and there. But all in all a great drug. Mood libido everything really good. I have been around lots of sick people lately and have not caught one cold. Thats not normal for me. I catch every single cold out there(always been that way). I love this stuff. I should have did it a long time ago. Personally think its not that harmful if you eat clean and exercise.

[quote]Foxen wrote:
HunterKiller wrote:
alcohol is a poor comparison to any other chemical when it comes to liver damage. Alcohol damages the liver by converting to fat and being deposited in the liver. This fat is later removed by the body and dealt with some other way. People damage their liver by drinking every day for long periods of time and the body cant get rid of the extra fat, eventually blood flow is cut off to parts of the liver and part of it die and fail. You have to work really hard or have really bad genetics to harm your liver with alcohol.

With this in mind (as alcohol was just an example) what do you think it could be compared to if we could give 17aa’s a general rating?[/quote]

Thats outside my knowledge, some quick searches indicate that it builds up in the liver and changes key enzymes be down regulated. Why this happens I am not sure.

Just my thoughts it looks like the buildup over time of those 17aa metabolite is what damages to liver. Once it starts reaching a certain level it becomes dangerous. I think the moral is like with all steroid use responsibility and moderation is the key with these.

I also think the Liver toxicity issues are exagerated but what about the unfavourable change to Lipid Profiles’?

The vague area for me and possibly others is…
How quickly are they affected, for how long, How soon are they reversed and what long term effect is the change likely to have, say after a 4 week or 8 week cycle?

This will of course vary between individuals and I’ve read reports from users (of anavar in particular) who claim to have no/ little change and those where it swings dramatically.

The liver is one thing but the liver does have the ability to regenerate whereas blocked arteries = fucked.

I ran a cycle of var 30mg a day for just 4 weeks about 2 years ago and made great progress with no sides other than ridiculous lower back pumps. I’m keen to do the same again but the ldl/hdl concerns me more as I approach 40.

Any thoughts?

Anyone?