optimal training and nutriton for hardgainers(tendency for fat)

Hi guys I tried posting this yesterday but with the glitches it must not have made it…here we go again. With all the talk of the hardgainer who has trouble gaining muscle because of a tendency to gain a good amount of fat lately ,I had to sit back and smile…THIS IS ME…as a formerly obese kid its refreshing to see the term hardgainer apply to someone who is not a beanpole. I was wondering how the staffers and coaches and knowledgable members of this forum would go about creating the optimal muscle gaining program for someone of this type and then critique my program. I figure there are a few seperate areas that need to be addressed specfically when dealing with this. 1. Diet Carbs should probably come from low II low GI sources…i have been getting my carbs almost exclusively from oats and surge with some green veggies also accounting for some in my total(250 grams). Fats…saturates should be very low to very moderate…maority of my intake comes from fish ,flax, CLA…and what is found in the oats(80 grams a day)Protein-should be kept high (270 grams a day for myself).All meals are done massive eating style with cutoff time for carbs being no later than 7pm.2- Training- this has confused me a bit because i originally had volume very high a around 24 sets and this allowed me to stay lean while bumping up calories …but did not allow for muscle gains. olumeseemsto be kept slightly high in order not to put on lots of fat but not so high that recovery is impaired. i am currently lifting mon tue…thus fri…18 sets perworkout 2 bodyparts per workout. I have seemed to gain some fat since dropping the volume.3 cardio- This issue is very very touchy becaus you do not want to hamper recovery whatsoever while gaining but you do not want to balloon up either. i have dropped cardio from my program and have seemed to gain some fat. Is there a need for cardio on a muscle buildng(hypertrophy -neural) program? 4- supplementation. i have been using the new methoxy 7 and Cla(7gms) for their nutrient partioning effects along with glut/bcaa’s and Surge for recovery.BTW am 19… How does this look …how can it be improved… The problem I think myself and others run into is that there is too GREAT of a fat gain(some fat gain must be accepted) ad the muscle building/gaining period must be cut short and followed by a cycle of dieting where the little muscle that was put on is lost and everything becomes stagnant. I would really appreciate the input form some of the coaches tat luk this board an the staff as to how you guys would go about this sort of thing and how my program can be improved. I’m sorry for the long post . Thanks, …Mike

My biggest help so far in getting leaner is doing mroe compound excercises - squats, deads, push-presses. Meltdown training and other circuit type training before it has really melted the fat off…

Thanks Aiki…my programs revolve round the big movements…always will…and you are right…I did some circuit training in the summer and it went great. Does anyone have any help for me related more towards the muscle building phases…thanks alot…Mike

just bumping this…anyone else have ny suggestions …or experience?

Mike - I would never stop performing some form of fitness related work. You dont have to perform “cardio” to the extent that it hurts your muscular growth and in fact if done properly will contribute do to enhanced recovery. Can you expand on your supp’s a little more with dosages too. I look forward to being of assistance. In faith, Coach Davies

Sounds to me like your diet needs to be looked at a lil bit. Sound to me like u gain alot of fat and minimal muscle and that sounds to me like an insulin sensitivity problem if im not mistaken. Try doing a massive eating type plan.

Hi Coach, thanks for taking some time to help.I have been taking two teaspoons of methoxy 7 before school. I tke 1 scoop of Surge during training…one right after. I take 1 half serving(15grams for me of glutacene in my 2nd postworkout meal) and 15 more grams of glutacene before bed. I take the scond serving ofethoxy 7 12 hours after the first. I also supplement with fish and flax oils…and CLA. I apprecaite any nutritional or training advice you could give. Thanks…Mike

Eddie thanks for the reply.I do follow the massive eating meal combos and such…its stated in my post.thanks or the help tho…Mike

Hey Mike
I have to agree with Coach Davies on this one. If you weren’t putting on fat when you were doing the additional fitness exercises and you started to put on fat when you dropped them then I would add them back in and simply eat more clean food to make up for the additional calories burned.

Coach…I replied to your previous questions…jut bumping this up so you could see, sorry I didn’t address the post to you personlly. Kelly i think you may be right it seems like it just needs to be the right dosage concerning the cardio and fitness work. thanks guys… anyone else have any insight for me …I appreciate it…Mike

Mike regarding your supplementation, I would probably increase the use of Surge by adding before your training as well as extra Glutacene at the start of the session. As far as extra fitness related work, you might also consider modest amounts of weighted/non-weighted gpp to add to your training. This will help develop work threshold as well as muscular recovery. I hope to hear from you. In faith, Coach Davies

Coach, thank you once again for the quick reply.Your help is really something not to be taken for granted by everyone on the forum. As far as my training goes…I have tried to incorporate some of your GPP circuit frm readig posts in the past…but i always ended performing the exercises in poor form. Do you have any weghted GPP (or other methods) suggestions. Also…I wll increase intakes but should you keep glutacene away from surge and maybe space it out throughout the day due to the formula for Surge ?

Mike, congratulations on your dedicated approach! I realize your primary goal at the moment is to maximize hypertrophy and minimize fat gain. Ever since Coach Davies began writing for T-mag, I’ve been inspired to ‘get back’ to my athletic roots and have been utilizing his approach to training. I would reccommend the same to you to solve your aerobic dilemna. I’ve been doing Don Alessi’s Melt Down training, while incorporating some of Coach’s training into it, ie: renegade squat pull, iron cross, etc. in addition to the excercises outlined in the article. However, if you wish to stay on track with your current protocol, do so, but try to experiment with 1-2 days/wk of the meltdown protocol with reduced weights, this will allow for a solid anabolic/gh response and raise your metobolism far more effectively than cardio alone will, and still allow for your standard training…just make sure to keep the weights low as you wish to avoid over training…I have actually increased my max lifts in EVERY lift and lost 10lbs in approx. 3 weeks by following the melt down training and Coach Davies philosophy. You may also want tweak your carb intake to a lower level, if you have a tendency to store fat, this may aid you in keeping more consistently lean…sorry to be long winded, but give it a shot!

JRandall thanks for your reply… I paln on incorporating meltdown in the future… Coach just bumping this in hope that you’ll see it and read my replies to you above. Thanks alot…Mike

congrad’s - thats great news and keep it up. Obviously, if I can be of any assistance please ask. In faith, Coach Davies

Why dont you tell me what you have available for weighted gpp. In faith, Coach Davies

Thanks for your encouragement Coach! I absolutely will be seeking your expertise very shortly as I am 7 months out from my left acl surgery. But that belongs in another thread. Thanks again for all of your outstanding motivation and leadership.

Coach thanks again for the response. For weighted Gpp…I might be leaving some stuff out because i’m not sure of all the things you use. I have a wheelbarrow… some db’s…and some large rocks outside…and somewhere( i think i have) a tire . I am also going to order a kettlebell in the very near future…but until then I’ll have to make due… Thanks alot for your help coach…suggestions are greatly appreciated…Thanks…Mike