Optimal Source of Carbohydrates Post Workout

Hey guys, I’ve been reading through some (credible material) on the net about the best types of carbohydrates to consume post workout… It seems like dextrose is the preferred type of sugar amongst all of them…I’m going to post an excerpt from an abcbodybuilding article which cites all of their claims.

"1. Male Cyclists were fed approximately 3, 000 calories after training. The breakdown ratio was 65 % carbohydrate, 20 % fat, and 15 percent protein intake.

  1. Participants were provided their carbohydrates from one of a number of sources. A. Glucose (straight up blood sugar, very high GI! ) B. 100 percent waxy starch Amylopectin and C. 100 percent resistant starch Amylose. Amylopectin is rapidly absorbed and easily digested.

  2. Comparison of various carbohydrate feeding conditions found the greatest glycogen synthesis in the Glucose condition (197.7 +/- 31.6 millimoles per kilogram of dry weight)
    followed by the amylopectin condition (+171.8 +/- 37.1). The least amount of glycogen sysnthesis was found in the resistant starch group (90.8 +/- 12.8 millimoles).

  3. Conclusion: " In summary, glycogen resynthesis was attenuated following ingestion of starch with a high amylose content, relative to amylopectin or glucose[29]. "

Their conclusion is consistent with Burke et al who also showed that less resistant, high GI rated CHO markedly replenished glycogen superiorly to low glycemic, resistant G.I. index carbs. This was again confirmed by Coyle et al. in which it was found that high glycemic index foods replenished carbs faster than lower glycemic. However, they also noted that intermediate glycemic foods augmented synthetic rates comparably to high glycemic. Thus, we can conclude from the above studies that moderate to high glycemic carbohydrates produce a greater rate of glycogen replenishment in skeletal muscle. "

Slightly further down

When discussing high glycemic, aside from the post workout it is recommended to stick with starch-oriented foods, such as rice, and pasta’s. Of course during the post workout meal, participants will utilize Knowlden(2004) and Venom(2003) methodods laid out in their papers on post workout nutrition. During periods of intense glycogen replenishment, it is wise to steer clear of fructose-saturated foods such as strawberries. It is a well-established fact, that such protocols are completely and utterly against everything an athlete wants to accomplish during these periods. In the journal of Nutrition and Metabolism Conlee et al. (1987) investigated the effectiveness of glucose and fructose feeding on restoring glycogen content after glycogen was decreased by exercise (90-min swim) or fasting â??24. It was found that " After 2 h of recovery from either exercise or fasting there was no measurable glycogen repletion in red vastus lateralis muscle in response to fructose. " However, when supplying glucose there was a significant increase in glycogen storage in both the fasting and training groups. They of course concluded the obvious: " that fructose is a poor nutritional precursor for rapid glycogen restoration in muscle after exercise. " There are several reasons for the above results. One of which is that once fructose is absorbed it must first be escorted to the liver before being converted to glucose. This slows its ability to be utilized tremendously. Further, it first enhances liver stores, rather than muscular glycogen stores. Any protocol, which utilizes this for glycogen replenishment, is done so despite the vast amount of evidence against it.

It seems that pure glucose was the winner in terms of absorption rates and glycogen replenishment in skeletal muscle…What can we consume thats close to pure blood sugar (glucose)? Waxy? Thoughts are welcomed

Surge Recovery contains D-glucose and maltodextrin (with D-glucose being listed first on the ingredient list).

Dextrose is d-glucose.

I don’t know about the “best” but Costco Mini Cinnamon Rolls are probably my favorite.

1 Like

The take home jewel for those that didn’t know already is that fruit is not a proper post workout carb.

Why should one care about carbohydrates “post workout”?

Insulin does not matter to building new muscle tissue.

Any protein one eats will elicit an insulin response.

One only needs a few grams of protein more than maintenance levels to build skeletal muscle.

One can only build a limited amount of skeletal muscle at a time; especially without hormonal therapy.

The biggest factor to building new muscle is energy intake and hormone balance; too little energy intake and hormone imbalance will not allow optimal muscle growth.

Eat lots of fat and protein and lift heavy weights.

…and don’t ask bodybuilders for their opinions about nutrition because they are only guessing.

1 Like

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
The take home jewel for those that didn’t know already is that fruit is not a proper post workout carb. [/quote]

Yeah, but DAMN it tastes good, and is quite refreshing… especially pineapple!

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]BlueCollarTr8n wrote:
The take home jewel for those that didn’t know already is that fruit is not a proper post workout carb. [/quote]

Yeah, but DAMN it tastes good, and is quite refreshing… especially pineapple![/quote]

not proper says who? and why?

Personally, I’ve been doing whey shake + banana PWO since I’m managing total carbs and thus allows me to still eat fruit, enjoy it, get some extra calories for cheap.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Insulin does not matter to building new muscle tissue.

.[/quote]

disagree

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

…and don’t ask bodybuilders for their opinions about nutrition because they are only guessing.[/quote]

I hate pulling the “what do you look like card”, but such a statement as what you just made would be applicable when calling out people that typically carry more muscle mass, if the goal is to build muscle. Not saying that their word should be gospel, but come on man.

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Insulin does not matter to building new muscle tissue.

.[/quote]

disagree[/quote]

So you are saying eating carbohydrates purely for the insulin response is necessary to build new muscle…?

Since insulin is secreted when one eats protein insulin will not be the limiting factor to building muscle.

How much insulin is necessary and how much new muscle can one expect to gain from its response?

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

…and don’t ask bodybuilders for their opinions about nutrition because they are only guessing.[/quote]

I hate pulling the “what do you look like card”, but such a statement as what you just made would be applicable when calling out people that typically carry more muscle mass, if the goal is to build muscle. Not saying that their word should be gospel, but come on man.[/quote]

Do I need to post a pic of me sans shirt in order to get any credit?

Why do some people respond to “bodybuilder gospel” by getting fat while others do not?

If all one needed to do was eat and lift heavy weights to get massive everyone would be massive and this thread would be unnecessary (where I give bodybuilders some credit is in their ability to get lean but they don’t hold all the cards when it comes to getting massive). This might work for the beginner but sooner or later it stops working.

Everyone knows this.

(for future reference should I just assume everyone who post questions here wants to be “bodybuilder massive”?)

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]jehovasfitness wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

…and don’t ask bodybuilders for their opinions about nutrition because they are only guessing.[/quote]

I hate pulling the “what do you look like card”, but such a statement as what you just made would be applicable when calling out people that typically carry more muscle mass, if the goal is to build muscle. Not saying that their word should be gospel, but come on man.[/quote]

Do I need to post a pic of me sans shirt in order to get any credit?

Why do some people respond to “bodybuilder gospel” by getting fat while others do not?

If all one needed to do was eat and lift heavy weights to get massive everyone would be massive and this thread would be unnecessary (where I give bodybuilders some credit is in their ability to get lean but they don’t hold all the cards when it comes to getting massive). This might work for the beginner but sooner or later it stops working.

Everyone knows this.

(for future reference should I just assume everyone who post questions here wants to be “bodybuilder massive”?)[/quote]

“If all one needed to do was eat and lift heavy weights…” there’s 2 key components that are missing there… consistency and progression, many (myself included) lack this hugely.

I’ve consistently worked out for years, but not always consistently “lifted heavy”, nor consistently made sure I was progressing.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Insulin does not matter to building new muscle tissue.

[/quote]

Really? Extreme example, but ask a type 1 diabetic how easy it is for them to build muscle before they started taking exogenous insulin. Non insulin mediated AA and glucose uptake only happens from 4-5 hours after activity. Protein synthesis isn’t completed by the end of that period.

Insulin absolutely has an affect on building muscle tissue. Hell, an article on here by Meadows and another guy provided research that shows that even with non insulin mediated uptake of AA and glucose provided from working out, there was enhanced protein synthesis when combined with an insulin spike from carbohydrates. Insulin could arguably be the most anabolic hormone in the body and to say it does not matter to building new muscle tissue is just a bit silly IMO. Good discussions on here lately btw!

[quote]McBEAST23 wrote:
Hey guys, I’ve been reading through some (credible material) on the net about the best types of carbohydrates to consume post workout… It seems like dextrose is the preferred type of sugar amongst all of them…I’m going to post an excerpt from an abcbodybuilding article which cites all of their claims.

"1. Male Cyclists were fed approximately 3, 000 calories after training. The breakdown ratio was 65 % carbohydrate, 20 % fat, and 15 percent protein intake.

  1. Participants were provided their carbohydrates from one of a number of sources. A. Glucose (straight up blood sugar, very high GI! ) B. 100 percent waxy starch Amylopectin and C. 100 percent resistant starch Amylose. Amylopectin is rapidly absorbed and easily digested.

  2. Comparison of various carbohydrate feeding conditions found the greatest glycogen synthesis in the Glucose condition (197.7 +/- 31.6 millimoles per kilogram of dry weight)
    followed by the amylopectin condition (+171.8 +/- 37.1). The least amount of glycogen sysnthesis was found in the resistant starch group (90.8 +/- 12.8 millimoles).

  3. Conclusion: " In summary, glycogen resynthesis was attenuated following ingestion of starch with a high amylose content, relative to amylopectin or glucose[29]. "

Their conclusion is consistent with Burke et al who also showed that less resistant, high GI rated CHO markedly replenished glycogen superiorly to low glycemic, resistant G.I. index carbs. This was again confirmed by Coyle et al. in which it was found that high glycemic index foods replenished carbs faster than lower glycemic. However, they also noted that intermediate glycemic foods augmented synthetic rates comparably to high glycemic. Thus, we can conclude from the above studies that moderate to high glycemic carbohydrates produce a greater rate of glycogen replenishment in skeletal muscle. "

Slightly further down

When discussing high glycemic, aside from the post workout it is recommended to stick with starch-oriented foods, such as rice, and pasta’s. Of course during the post workout meal, participants will utilize Knowlden(2004) and Venom(2003) methodods laid out in their papers on post workout nutrition. During periods of intense glycogen replenishment, it is wise to steer clear of fructose-saturated foods such as strawberries. It is a well-established fact, that such protocols are completely and utterly against everything an athlete wants to accomplish during these periods. In the journal of Nutrition and Metabolism Conlee et al. (1987) investigated the effectiveness of glucose and fructose feeding on restoring glycogen content after glycogen was decreased by exercise (90-min swim) or fasting â??24. It was found that " After 2 h of recovery from either exercise or fasting there was no measurable glycogen repletion in red vastus lateralis muscle in response to fructose. " However, when supplying glucose there was a significant increase in glycogen storage in both the fasting and training groups. They of course concluded the obvious: " that fructose is a poor nutritional precursor for rapid glycogen restoration in muscle after exercise. " There are several reasons for the above results. One of which is that once fructose is absorbed it must first be escorted to the liver before being converted to glucose. This slows its ability to be utilized tremendously. Further, it first enhances liver stores, rather than muscular glycogen stores. Any protocol, which utilizes this for glycogen replenishment, is done so despite the vast amount of evidence against it.

It seems that pure glucose was the winner in terms of absorption rates and glycogen replenishment in skeletal muscle…What can we consume thats close to pure blood sugar (glucose)? Waxy? Thoughts are welcomed[/quote]

If your goal is building muscle, why look at study that researches cyclists and their rate of glycogen synthesis? Glycogen synthesis isn’t the most important thing for people looking to building muscle. Looking how glucose uptake affects protein synthesis is more important. Glycogen synthesis doesn’t necessarily have a direct correlation with protein synthesis so reading too much into this article isn’t fruitful, unless of course you are a cyclist worried about energy levels.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Why should one care about carbohydrates “post workout”?

Insulin does not matter to building new muscle tissue.

Any protein one eats will elicit an insulin response.

One only needs a few grams of protein more than maintenance levels to build skeletal muscle.

One can only build a limited amount of skeletal muscle at a time; especially without hormonal therapy.

The biggest factor to building new muscle is energy intake and hormone balance; too little energy intake and hormone imbalance will not allow optimal muscle growth.

Eat lots of fat and protein and lift heavy weights.

…and don’t ask bodybuilders for their opinions about nutrition because they are only guessing.[/quote]

I REALLY don’t like to mention my credentials these days–an undergraduate in nutrition and a masters in nutrition and exercise physiology (sports nutrition focus) with a mentor that co-founded the most influental sports nutrition organization in the world–but it applies here, in an unexpected way.

With all my studies (and a thesis dealing with carb intake of endurace athletes), I learned VERY LITTLE regarding the actual practice of and counseling on sports and bodybuilding nutrition.

So I turn to and advise everyone else to turn to what every successful, or at least decent, bodybuilder has ever done to build muscle because it is boring for me and most to sift through nerdy studies that are unenjoyable to read and which can’t be correctly critiqued by most! And it’s pretty much the same shit across the board, regardless of what studies say or what information is pushed from point A to point B!

Here it is for mass gaining (contest prep is another topic):

  1. Protein set at 1 to 1.5 grams per pound.
  2. Moderate carbs and fats.
  3. Four to six days a week in the gym.
  4. Cardio a few times a week for heart health and to keep bodyfat in check.
  5. Two to four exercises per bodypart.
  6. 6 to 15 reps (sometimes even higher for legs or some isolation exercises).
  7. Isolation, machine, and basic free weight lifts thrown into the mix.

That’s it! I haven’t seen anyone else do anything different: all spins and styles and a million reinventions of the wheel! We can sift through geeky studies, reason, analyze, and talk about warm and fuzzy stuff like “insulin spikes” (if I hear this one more time…), nutrient timing (OK, this one isn’t so bad), and god knows what else. Yes, some BB’ers, believe, say, and do silly shit. But most of us don’t have time or inclination to reinvent the wheel or figure out everything out ourselves.

brick your posts are consistently great. The more and more I learn about what matters in bbing, the more I agree with what you say.

also I don’t see what the craze is over going ultra low carb always. In my opinion get lean and then don’t get fat. The carbophobes I see usually have unimpressive physiques.

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Why should one care about carbohydrates “post workout”?

Insulin does not matter to building new muscle tissue.

Any protein one eats will elicit an insulin response.

One only needs a few grams of protein more than maintenance levels to build skeletal muscle.

One can only build a limited amount of skeletal muscle at a time; especially without hormonal therapy.

The biggest factor to building new muscle is energy intake and hormone balance; too little energy intake and hormone imbalance will not allow optimal muscle growth.

Eat lots of fat and protein and lift heavy weights.

…and don’t ask bodybuilders for their opinions about nutrition because they are only guessing.[/quote]

I REALLY don’t like to mention my credentials these days–an undergraduate in nutrition and a masters in nutrition and exercise physiology (sports nutrition focus) with a mentor that co-founded the most influental sports nutrition organization in the world–but it applies here, in an unexpected way.

With all my studies (and a thesis dealing with carb intake of endurace athletes), I learned VERY LITTLE regarding the actual practice of and counseling on sports and bodybuilding nutrition.

So I turn to and advise everyone else to turn to what every successful, or at least decent, bodybuilder has ever done to build muscle because it is boring for me and most to sift through nerdy studies that are unenjoyable to read and which can’t be correctly critiqued by most! And it’s pretty much the same shit across the board, regardless of what studies say or what information is pushed from point A to point B!

Here it is for mass gaining (contest prep is another topic):

  1. Protein set at 1 to 1.5 grams per pound.
  2. Moderate carbs and fats.
  3. Four to six days a week in the gym.
  4. Cardio a few times a week for heart health and to keep bodyfat in check.
  5. Two to four exercises per bodypart.
  6. 6 to 15 reps (sometimes even higher for legs or some isolation exercises).
  7. Isolation, machine, and basic free weight lifts thrown into the mix.

That’s it! I haven’t seen anyone else do anything different: all spins and styles and a million reinventions of the wheel! We can sift through geeky studies, reason, analyze, and talk about warm and fuzzy stuff like “insulin spikes” (if I hear this one more time…), nutrient timing (OK, this one isn’t so bad), and god knows what else. Yes, some BB’ers, believe, say, and do silly shit. But most of us don’t have time or inclination to reinvent the wheel or figure out everything out ourselves.

[/quote]

I understand what you’re getting at, but what is the point of having a supplement and nutrition forum to discuss this stuff then? I mean your post just revealed everything anyone ever needs to know, right?

My point is, what is so bad about debating ways to optimize everything you’re doing inside and outside of the gym?

[quote]schanz_05 wrote:

[quote]BrickHead wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Why should one care about carbohydrates “post workout”?

Insulin does not matter to building new muscle tissue.

Any protein one eats will elicit an insulin response.

One only needs a few grams of protein more than maintenance levels to build skeletal muscle.

One can only build a limited amount of skeletal muscle at a time; especially without hormonal therapy.

The biggest factor to building new muscle is energy intake and hormone balance; too little energy intake and hormone imbalance will not allow optimal muscle growth.

Eat lots of fat and protein and lift heavy weights.

…and don’t ask bodybuilders for their opinions about nutrition because they are only guessing.[/quote]

I REALLY don’t like to mention my credentials these days–an undergraduate in nutrition and a masters in nutrition and exercise physiology (sports nutrition focus) with a mentor that co-founded the most influental sports nutrition organization in the world–but it applies here, in an unexpected way.

With all my studies (and a thesis dealing with carb intake of endurace athletes), I learned VERY LITTLE regarding the actual practice of and counseling on sports and bodybuilding nutrition.

So I turn to and advise everyone else to turn to what every successful, or at least decent, bodybuilder has ever done to build muscle because it is boring for me and most to sift through nerdy studies that are unenjoyable to read and which can’t be correctly critiqued by most! And it’s pretty much the same shit across the board, regardless of what studies say or what information is pushed from point A to point B!

Here it is for mass gaining (contest prep is another topic):

  1. Protein set at 1 to 1.5 grams per pound.
  2. Moderate carbs and fats.
  3. Four to six days a week in the gym.
  4. Cardio a few times a week for heart health and to keep bodyfat in check.
  5. Two to four exercises per bodypart.
  6. 6 to 15 reps (sometimes even higher for legs or some isolation exercises).
  7. Isolation, machine, and basic free weight lifts thrown into the mix.

That’s it! I haven’t seen anyone else do anything different: all spins and styles and a million reinventions of the wheel! We can sift through geeky studies, reason, analyze, and talk about warm and fuzzy stuff like “insulin spikes” (if I hear this one more time…), nutrient timing (OK, this one isn’t so bad), and god knows what else. Yes, some BB’ers, believe, say, and do silly shit. But most of us don’t have time or inclination to reinvent the wheel or figure out everything out ourselves.

[/quote]

I understand what you’re getting at, but what is the point of having a supplement and nutrition forum to discuss this stuff then? I mean your post just revealed everything anyone ever needs to know, right?

My point is, what is so bad about debating ways to optimize everything you’re doing inside and outside of the gym?
[/quote]

I thought the point was fine tuning everything… Like diet, diet timing, rest, hormones and of course the lifting protocols. Getting big, strong and (hopefully) staying lean is about being consistent over a long period of time. We know it isn’t simply about protein consumed per lb of body weight, because timing of meals is so crucial. I’m wrong? Go have all your food for the day in one sitting, tell me about your gains in 6 months…

All the little things put together add up.