T Nation

Opposite Of the Squat


#1

How come I read that the opposite of a squat is the deadlift? Where did this come from? Why do I see popular programs and routines do only those for lower body? Both movements involve knee, hip, and ankle extension. The true opposite of a squat would be to pull a weight down into the bottom of a squat. This would involve knee, hip, and ankle flexion. I wonder how many people here never work their hamstrings, shins, hip flexors, and abs (I used to be one of them when I didn't know any better...) I think APT would be less prevalent if this was considered...


#2

It is hard to explain why stupid people say and do stupid things. Your best bet is to not waste time figuring it out.


#3

Hang from a pullup bar and hold a dumbbell between your feet. Now pull the weight up, and while you are at it, do a pullup just for shits and giggles.


#4

I’m pretty sure most leg training templates include knee flexion–i.e. leg curls.


#5

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
How come I read that the opposite of a squat is the deadlift? Where did this come from? Why do I see popular programs and routines do only those for lower body?[/quote]

Who cares? Train how you want to train and don’t worry so much about other people.


#6

Well I think back to the popular 5x5 routines. A lot of the original templates done by Bill Starr didn’t have what I mentioned. The more popular ones like Madcow / Stronglifts gave me the impression that, yeah, I can do abs and and leg curls and arms, but don’t worry about them if I don’t have the energy.

I guess what I’m getting at is there’s a lot of emphasis on squat and deadlift and the opposing movements are just afterthoughts. I see a lot of people complaining about APT and they squat/deadlift/leg press/lunge all the time and do 1 or 2 sets here and there for hamstrings, abs, etc.


#7

[quote]Ecchastang wrote:
Hang from a pullup bar and hold a dumbbell between your feet. Now pull the weight up, and while you are at it, do a pullup just for shits and giggles. [/quote]

Definitely a good exercise…


#8

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
Well I think back to the popular 5x5 routines. A lot of the original templates done by Bill Starr didn’t have what I mentioned. The more popular ones like Madcow / Stronglifts gave me the impression that, yeah, I can do abs and and leg curls and arms, but don’t worry about them if I don’t have the energy.

I guess what I’m getting at is there’s a lot of emphasis on squat and deadlift and the opposing movements are just afterthoughts. I see a lot of people complaining about APT and they squat/deadlift/leg press/lunge all the time and do 1 or 2 sets here and there for hamstrings, abs, etc.[/quote]

I feel like the purpose of Madcow and Bill Star’s routines was to build strength rather than a balanced physique, usually for the sake of athletic performance. Maybe I’m confusing them with something else?

And it’s reasonable that the Stronglifts routine is poorly designed, mainly because the author of the routine has no accomplishments to speak of and just slapped something together and made a website about it that people flocked to en masse.


#9

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
How come I read that the opposite of a squat is the deadlift? Where did this come from? Why do I see popular programs and routines do only those for lower body? [/quote]

I’ve been lifting for 10+ years, and I don’t remember ever hearing that the squat is the ‘opposite’ of the deadlift. That’s obviously garbage. I’m curious if you can point me in the direction of the source of this statement.

As for routines that only use those 2 lifts for lower body, that’s all I do. Every now and then I’ll do some front squats or good mornings… I’ve done leg extensions twice this year… I’ve probably done leg curls 5 or 6 times… but most leg days for me are just squats or just deadlifts. They work.


#10

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
How come I read that the opposite of a squat is the deadlift? Where did this come from? Why do I see popular programs and routines do only those for lower body? [/quote]

I’ve been lifting for 10+ years, and I don’t remember ever hearing that the squat is the ‘opposite’ of the deadlift. That’s obviously garbage. I’m curious if you can point me in the direction of the source of this statement.

As for routines that only use those 2 lifts for lower body, that’s all I do. Every now and then I’ll do some front squats or good mornings… I’ve done leg extensions twice this year… I’ve probably done leg curls 5 or 6 times… but most leg days for me are just squats or just deadlifts. They work.
[/quote]

Why don’t you do any lower body flexion work?


#11

Your premise that squatting and deadlifting don’t involve abs or hamstrings is false. Anyone who has done these exercises much knows this. I do no specific ab or hamstring isolation yet my abs and hamstrings are often sore and sometimes even cramping after squats and deadlifts. Rippetoe has written that anyone with a good squat clearly already has a strong core demonstrated by the fact that they don’t crumple under the weight. When I try to perform “ab” exercises I often do them as well as non-lifters who train them directly just because my squat and deadlift are well trained (compared to normal people, but on this site I’m just another guy at best).

Also, for some reason I now have more tibialis anterior definition, and I don’t train it directly, so squats and deadlifts have to be the answer. I think we often look at the muscles an exercise contracts directly and forget how many muscles we use for stabilization. That’s why we do barbell compounds - so we don’t need a shin machine and an ab machine and a hipflexor machine, etc.


#12

[quote]oso0690 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
How come I read that the opposite of a squat is the deadlift? Where did this come from? Why do I see popular programs and routines do only those for lower body? [/quote]

I’ve been lifting for 10+ years, and I don’t remember ever hearing that the squat is the ‘opposite’ of the deadlift. That’s obviously garbage. I’m curious if you can point me in the direction of the source of this statement.

As for routines that only use those 2 lifts for lower body, that’s all I do. Every now and then I’ll do some front squats or good mornings… I’ve done leg extensions twice this year… I’ve probably done leg curls 5 or 6 times… but most leg days for me are just squats or just deadlifts. They work.
[/quote]

Why don’t you do any lower body flexion work?[/quote]

I’m not sure, what, specifically, you mean by ‘lower body flexion’. But I think that the answer to your question is that my training methodology is an efficient way to reach my goals. My hamstrings, glutes, quads, hips are all strong, I like the way I look, and I’m consistently seeing improvement. And nothing hurts. I believe that squats are the absolute best overall leg builder for me, so if I have the option of doing leg curls, extensions, presses, etc, or doing more squats… I’ll almost always choose to do more squats.


#13

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
Why don’t you do any lower body flexion work?[/quote]

My hamstrings, glutes, quads, hips are all strong, I like the way I look, and I’m consistently seeing improvement. And nothing hurts. I believe that squats are the absolute best overall leg builder for me, so if I have the option of doing leg curls, extensions, presses, etc, or doing more squats… I’ll almost always choose to do more squats.[/quote]

I’m intrigued to know what the OP thinks flipcollar and myself are missing by not doing leg curls on a regular basis?


#14

damn if id only been doing leg curls maybe my legs wouldnt be so small and unhealthy.


#15

[quote]dagill2 wrote:

[quote]flipcollar wrote:

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
Why don’t you do any lower body flexion work?[/quote]

My hamstrings, glutes, quads, hips are all strong, I like the way I look, and I’m consistently seeing improvement. And nothing hurts. I believe that squats are the absolute best overall leg builder for me, so if I have the option of doing leg curls, extensions, presses, etc, or doing more squats… I’ll almost always choose to do more squats.[/quote]

I’m intrigued to know what the OP thinks flipcollar and myself are missing by not doing leg curls on a regular basis?
[/quote]

Like so many other people who post on here (and never see results), the OP gets bogged down in minutia. That’s apparent just from reading a handful of the other threads he’s either started or participated in. He’d rather debate the merits of organic honey over ‘regular’ honey than get in the gym and fucking squat for hours. To each his own. I’ll squat.


#16

the opposite of the squat would be hanging upside down from a bar by your feet and pulling yourself up to it.

I just invented a new exercise! The Yogi Squat. Coming soon to a gym near you.


#17

@jskrabac - As you can see, there are a lot of people that do no direct hamstring work. Or any type of knee flexion movement whatsoever.

It also looks like T3hPwnisher would agree that doing absolutely no hamstring work is sacrificing a balanced physique for the sake of athletic performance.

@thegymismyshrink - I agree that they do involve the hamstrings and abs and that they act only as stabilizers. To me, it is equivalent to saying that a pushup involves the lats. I can’t imagine how a knee extension exercise (quads) could involve the knee flexion muscles (hamstrings) equally enough to merit doing absolutely no knee flexion exercises.

@Flipcollar - I wonder if you have APT and how bad it is? Anyway, lower body flexion = hip flexion / knee flexion / ankle flexion. That should’ve been apparent in my first post… Clearly you can’t listen to your own advice and get in the gym and fucking squat for hours if you have the time to reply to a thread you seem to not give a shit about.

@dagill2 - I was thinking muscle imbalances which eventually = injuries. I just find it hard to believe that if continually doing a knee extension exercise, the knee flexion muscles (hamstrings) will not fall behind eventually. It sounds like the equivalent to doing only bench press and hoping the biceps will develop because it is a stabilizing muscle.


#18

Grab a bar with some good weight on it, do stiff-leg deadlifts for awhile, and then observe how you never bent your knee yet your hamstrings will be sore as hell. Squats and deads are triple extensions and extending at the hip involves the hamstrings.


#19

[quote]oso0690 wrote:
It also looks like T3hPwnisher would agree that doing absolutely no hamstring work is sacrificing a balanced physique for the sake of athletic performance.
[/quote]

By definition, doing no hamstring work is not training for a balanced physique. That said, I do not see an absence of hamstring work in Bill Starr’s/Madcows program. Those programs are designed to improve athletic performance though, not develop a balanced physique, so to be upset that they do not accomplish goals they are not built for is silly.


#20

The hamstring crosses two joints, the hip and the knee, and is involved in knee flexion and hip extension. The squat uses the hamstring in hip extension. It is not just a stabilizer, as you incorrectly state.