T Nation

Opinions on My Plan for Next 3 Months


#1

I've had great success with SL5x5 and madcow and then moved into Wendler's 5/3/1 (this spanned about 1.5 years) but would now like to focus a bit more on adding size.

Based on CW's work, which has been great for me in the past I have become a huge advocate of frequently training every body part. Then I came across thiss article:
http://www.T-Nation.com/training/full-body-workouts-of-the-legends

Based on the foregoing, I devised a new plan for the next 3 months (it starts today).

I lift 4 days a week.
On Mondays I continue my 5/3/1 work. So on Mondays I do Bench, DL, OHP & Squat and I finish with weighted carries.

Tuesdays I do Eiferman/Colbert style full body training (see article referenced above for details). I've added weighted carries and ab work.

Wednesday is a rest day.

Thursdays I do Eiferman/Colbert style full body training again. I've added weighted carries and ab work.

Fridays I do Gironda's style training 8x8 with his specifically stated method of progression (reducing rest periods).

Off Saturday and Sundays.

I'm doing full body training because I noticed that my body responds best when I hit body parts more than twice a week. Also, I've been on a split for the last 3 months (Mondays - 5/3/1 work) plus four day split tues - fri)and I found that the bodyparts that experienced the most hypertrophy are the ones that I hit most frequently.

So while I'm curious as to what you guys think, I intend to move forward with the above stated plan but am open to some recommended modifications.

Also, do you guys think that if I lift on Wednesday and rest only on Saturday/Sunday that will be potentially overtraining? I wouldn't mind training 5 days out of 7. The only reason I only scheduled 4 days a week is for fear of overtraining but I've been training 5 days a week for a while now. I will be on I3g, Plazma & Mag-10 the entire time.

Your thoughts will be appreciated.


#2

I personally think trying to mix the programs is going to be a disaster. Why not pic a 4 day full body template instead? Or do something along the lines of

heavy
light
rest
medium
light
rest
rest

That way you are doing full body 4 days, but you are getting some recovery in there as well.


#3

just do 5/3/1. You’ll still be training your full body twice a week.


#4

[quote]Yogi wrote:
just do 5/3/1. You’ll still be training your full body twice a week.[/quote]

Volume is too low for me (in that size based results are minimal) even with BBB variant. I’ve been doing 5/3/1 for a long time now. Strength gains continue to come (though I have hit a plateau).


#5

Mixing three different programs with 3 different, and competing, principles is a recipe for disaster.

I also can’t see a one day a week version of 5/3/1 where you do all 4 lifts being particularly productive. Jim has done better templates for 1 day a week, although even they aren’t optimal.

If your goal is just to get bigger, have you tried the more hypertrophy based 5/3/1 templates like Boring But Big etc.? Or if you’re bored of 5/3/1 totally, why not just one program that you know to be effective instead of trying 3?


#6

[quote]RDeschain wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
just do 5/3/1. You’ll still be training your full body twice a week.[/quote]

Volume is too low for me (in that size based results are minimal) even with BBB variant. I’ve been doing 5/3/1 for a long time now. Strength gains continue to come (though I have hit a plateau).
[/quote]

Have you looked at spinal tap training if you think volume on BBB is too low?


#7

Read my thread.


#8

[quote]RDeschain wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
just do 5/3/1. You’ll still be training your full body twice a week.[/quote]

Volume is too low for me (in that size based results are minimal) even with BBB variant. I’ve been doing 5/3/1 for a long time now. Strength gains continue to come (though I have hit a plateau).
[/quote]

What, exactly, did you eat yesterday?

You are perhaps aware that “size gains” will be determined by diet just as much, if not more, than by your training? That muscles cannot materialize out of nothingness absent a sufficiency of calories, regardless of how much volume you pile on? That more volume will, in fact, be detrimental to “size gains” if it is not accompanied by appropriate meal planning?

So I ask my initial question again: let’s hear it. What did you eat yesterday, and the day before that, maybe. That will be very telling in whether the solution to your lack-of-size-gains problem is “increasing volume of exercise” or “increasing volume of food.”


#9

[quote]dagill2 wrote:
Mixing three different programs with 3 different, and competing, principles is a recipe for disaster.

I also can’t see a one day a week version of 5/3/1 where you do all 4 lifts being particularly productive. Jim has done better templates for 1 day a week, although even they aren’t optimal.

If your goal is just to get bigger, have you tried the more hypertrophy based 5/3/1 templates like Boring But Big etc.? Or if you’re bored of 5/3/1 totally, why not just one program that you know to be effective instead of trying 3?[/quote]

I do agree that mixing three programs with 3 different and competing principles/goals is a recipe for disaster.

However, in the program I’ve outlined there are only two semi-competing principles. The full body training is for hypertrophy, the 5/3/1 is for stength.

The Tuesday and Thursday workout is nearly identical. The Friday workout is simply full body (just like Tuesday and Thursday) except that it implements 8x8.

As stated in the OP, my body has responded best (in terms of hypertrophy) to lots of volume and hitting bodyparts three times a week.

I apologize if Im coming off as argumentative/defensive. I really am just curious about others thoughts and so far I’m seeing a consensus.

I’ve attached my “program” for further review. As you all can see I’m a bit of alight weight compared to most of you guys here.

I’m 5ft 6" and 165 lb currently.


#10

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

[quote]RDeschain wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
just do 5/3/1. You’ll still be training your full body twice a week.[/quote]

Volume is too low for me (in that size based results are minimal) even with BBB variant. I’ve been doing 5/3/1 for a long time now. Strength gains continue to come (though I have hit a plateau).
[/quote]

What, exactly, did you eat yesterday?

You are perhaps aware that “size gains” will be determined by diet just as much, if not more, than by your training? That muscles cannot materialize out of nothingness absent a sufficiency of calories, regardless of how much volume you pile on? That more volume will, in fact, be detrimental to “size gains” if it is not accompanied by appropriate meal planning?

So I ask my initial question again: let’s hear it. What did you eat yesterday, and the day before that, maybe. That will be very telling in whether the solution to your lack-of-size-gains problem is “increasing volume of exercise” or “increasing volume of food.”[/quote]

well said and of course 100% right. I’ve been lurking for way longer than my join date indicates and am well aware that you need a caloric surplus even when attempting a clean bulk as I intend.

I should have elaborated in the OP but I am coming off of a weight loss phase (which explains the strength gain plateau) but in the last 6 weeks I’ve been eating AT maintenance as I’ve been running an experiment of sorts (so you got me there). But during this time, while eating at maintenance I’ve been toying with higher frequency/ volume stuff for arms and back (a specialization of sorts) and have noticed visible improvements to arms and back while other muscular development seems suboptimal (which is a given considering the diet).

What surprised me was that higher frequency/volume despite maintenance level caloric intake visibly improved my arms and back. So I began researching all my old logs and saw that when I was at my biggest, I was eating big AND doing CW’s TBT program way back in the day. Then I saw the Full Body workouts of the legends article and my recent and past results and thought to myself, I need to get back on full body training, do it more frequently but I want to continue to tryand increase my strength levels as well.

To be completely honest, I’m actually behind in terms of getting he diet plan in order even while knowing it’s more important than the programming. I’m currently considering carb cycling or a carb back loading approach. I expect to have that figured out in a few days but didn’t want to hold off on beginning a new program although there really is no rush.

That said, assuming the diet is in order (a HUGE assumption I know) I wanted some feedback on the higher frequency/higher volume approach which has historically given me the best gains.


#11

I think we found the answer.

Too much thinking going on here. Way too much.

Wendler set up his programs the way he did for a reason. Either do them, or don’t, but if it doesn’t work the way you want, don’t blame the program when you fucked with it and tried to do 5/3/1 for “strength” plus extra full body work for “hypertrophy” - bullshit. Those two things (strength and hypertrophy) are not purely independent events unless you’re at a pretty high level.

I don’t think you’ll be worried about a lack of size gains with 5/3/1 and BBB if you’re actually eating enough to support size gains.

And if you’re NOT eating enough to support size gains, the choice of program will not matter very much, either.


#12

I don’t think I have ever really seen a weight training plan approved of on the internet, regardless of what it was.

TC: Do your plan, let us know how it goes.


#13

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:

Wendler set up his programs the way he did for a reason. Either do them, or don’t, but if it doesn’t work the way you want, don’t blame the program when you fucked with it and tried to do 5/3/1 for “strength” plus extra full body work for “hypertrophy” - bullshit. Those two things (strength and hypertrophy) are not purely independent events unless you’re at a pretty high level.[/quote]

That’s a great point.

I am in agreement with you.

My post was intended to try and gather feedback on a high frequency and high volume approach. I didn’t intend to come on here to criticize certain programs (programs that have worked really well for me) and I can see how it may come off that way. While I appreciate your reminder that I need to eat appropriately, it was something that I didn’t intend to overlook. And in fact, how I have eaten to this point in time has aligned with my goals to date. But I do see why you’re reacting this way…it’s because I said, “oh 5/3/1 didn’t give me much size”, meanwhile my diet was not up to snuff so that was an unfair statement. My fault there.

But I’m not the type to over analyze and then do nothing. I do work pretty hard and I’m simply looking for ways to improve.

[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
I don’t think I have ever really seen a weight training plan approved of on the internet, regardless of what it was.

TC: Do your plan, let us know how it goes.[/quote]

Indeed.


#14

^OP, now that I re-read my post, it came off a little harsh. I stand by the sentiments in it, but the tone sounds a little overly dickish.

Another general maxim is that “pretty much everything within reason works” until you’re at a pretty high level. Most of us regular shmoes can make gains using almost any training approach as long as we do it hard, rest and recover properly, and eat properly to fuel good performance.


#15

[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
^OP, now that I re-read my post, it came off a little harsh. I stand by the sentiments in it, but the tone sounds a little overly dickish.

Another general maxim is that “pretty much everything within reason works” until you’re at a pretty high level. Most of us regular shmoes can make gains using almost any training approach as long as we do it hard, rest and recover properly, and eat properly to fuel good performance. [/quote]

No, I see why you reacted that way. And IMO you are right as I made an unfair statement, see my edited post above.


#16

[quote]RDeschain wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
just do 5/3/1. You’ll still be training your full body twice a week.[/quote]

Volume is too low for me (in that size based results are minimal) even with BBB variant. I’ve been doing 5/3/1 for a long time now. Strength gains continue to come (though I have hit a plateau).
[/quote]

What are you talking about? If you want more volume, just do more volume.

5/3/1 you can literally do ANYTHING you like so long as you use the percentage progression on the main lifts.


#17

[quote]Yogi wrote:

What are you talking about? If you want more volume, just do more volume.

5/3/1 you can literally do ANYTHING you like so long as you use the percentage progression on the main lifts.[/quote]

Agreed - A template like the BBB 3 month challenge incorporates specific % 1 RM work on the core lifts as part of the assistance work, so you’re hitting the core lifts 2x/week in that respect, at least in sets of 5 x 10 on alternating days. Also, you can customize assistance work on the other templates to suit your goals, and also there are plenty of options such as FSL, AMRAP, and joker sets, to name a few, to add more volume to the stock 5/3/1 core templates.


#18

[quote]Yogi wrote:

[quote]RDeschain wrote:

[quote]Yogi wrote:
just do 5/3/1. You’ll still be training your full body twice a week.[/quote]

Volume is too low for me (in that size based results are minimal) even with BBB variant. I’ve been doing 5/3/1 for a long time now. Strength gains continue to come (though I have hit a plateau).
[/quote]

What are you talking about? If you want more volume, just do more volume.

5/3/1 you can literally do ANYTHING you like so long as you use the percentage progression on the main lifts.[/quote]

Yup, that’s exactly what I’ve done. So it appears we’re in agreement!
I did 5/3/1 BBB variant and added a lot more volume except it was a 4 day split ON TOP of all the 5/3/1 work on Mondays. But if you’ve gleaned from my posts above, I didn’t feel I was hitting each body part enough which is why I’m now going to full body training.


#19

Many years ago, I bought Thib’s Jekyll and Hyde ebook when it first came out but life got busy so I never had the time to try his 24 week program. I remember it was structured extremely well into various high volume, high frequency and high density phases with cluster sets all the way to gironda principles being utilized.

I have a feeling you’ll like it.