T Nation

Opinions of Krav Maga?

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sento, I don’t think your analogy is a fair one.

To me, boxing is effective precisely because you don’t spend thousands of hours preparing for every single scenario in the book. It’s just those same six punches, a million times over.

When you start saying that Mike Tyson would train in a RBMA and do all kinds of other crap, you’re forgetting that that’s going to make “more well rounded” but a shittier boxer.

What you’re citing quickly turns into the classic bullshit thing of “Boxer vs. MMA guy” - MMA striking sucks ass, but they blame it on the fact that there’s so many more facets.
[/quote]

What takes so long to really get good at in boxing isn’t the punches, those can be taught in a relatively short period of time. It’s the timing, distancing, learning how to beat different types of opponents, basically strategy stuff which takes countless hours to really master. Some of that strategy however is predicated on the rules of boxing. Sure, the punches need to continue to be practiced (if for no other reason than to maintain your level of proficiency), but there is plenty of time (assuming that someone is training with the type of hours that Tyson trained) for development of other skills as well.

Watch a boxing match the next time (especially heavyweights) and notice how many times it could have easily gone to a clinch. Notice how many times they’re standing with nearly straight legs wide apart, or their weight forward on their lead leg, making them sitting ducks to get blasted in the legs (or have their knee shattered) by kicks. Notice how close they stand to each other, making them well within range to a shot from a good wrestler.

Like I’ve said many, many times before, boxing is a great skill set and will definitely improve one’s ability to defend themselves. But to think that it’s all you need, or that being more well rounded wouldn’t be better is just falling into the same old “skill set X is the best, that’s all you really need” mindset.

The Boxer vs MMA fighter is actually a valid argument. Regardless of how good the boxer is, he’s eventually going to get cornered by a good wrestler and taken down. And because he’s been too stubborn to learn grappling and instead put all his eggs in the boxing basket, he’s up shit’s creek once the wrestler gets a hold of him. If MMA has demonstrated anything it’s that neither striking nor grappling are superior skill sets, it’s the guys who are the most well rounded and can do both effectively who win and continue to win.

First, I thought you were of the school of thought that punchers are born not made.

Second, well maybe he will punch like an MMA fighter (though, if he’s got a good striking coach then I think he’d still be able to strike pretty well, but maybe I’m biased from experience), but he’ll still be a hell of a lot better of a puncher than boxing Mike will be of a wrestler, or submission artist, or ground and pounder, or with weapons, or at verbal/postural de-escalation, etc… Basically the only thing that Boxing Mike will be good at (at all) is punching, and even then only on his feet from a specific range.

The basic foundational skills are definitely the ones that one should spend the most time on (goes for punching, kicking, takedowns, escapes, submissions, weapon skills, etc…) and it’s no wonder those are simple, easily reproduced, less fine motor skill based (because they tend to deteriorate less under stress). The more “complex effective” skill sets are worth learning once the basics are firmly in place, but they aren’t going to be necessary for the majority of opponents that you would face in a real fight. They would be more for those rare specialist type opponents (or sporting contexts).

Being vicious, brutal and hitting first also lands people in jail. Again that’s a great way to win the fight, but lose the war.

And even then, what happens if the other guy hits you first? Well, might as well just throw up your hands and let yourself get pounded on right? Or what happens if some guy just slams into you with a tackle and drives you to the ground? Now your boxing is gonna be pretty useless off your back as he’s raining strikes down on you. Pretty bad trade for you, punching up against gravity while he punches down with it,even if he does hit like one of those MMA fighters. How about if his friend sneaks up behind you and bear hugs you over your arms so his friend can pound on you unimpeded, pretty tough to punch from there, or dodge and slip punches, or use your boxing footwork to dance out of range, wouldn’t you say?

[quote]
Me and you have very different ways of looking at this self defense idea I think.[/quote]

Yeah, appears that way.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Now, Boxer Mike would probably still win a couple fights simply because he is so good at that one context, but RMA Mike is likely going to crush him in the majority of them since he has so many more options and skill sets available for him to choose from. And once it gets out of Boxing Mike’s comfort zone, he’s going to be at a huge disadvantage.[/quote]

As the real Iron Mike said - everybody’s got a plan, until they get hit.

I don’t see many RBSD guys in streetfights. Maybe that’s because they’re older and smarter and stay out of them.

But I would still take a good boxer (or wrestler) any day over anyone who trains in nearly any RBSD system. [/quote]

I think as you said, most good RBSD guy/gal probably would stay out of trouble (even if that means avoiding places where trouble is more likely to occur), so you probably aren’t going to see them in too many street fights.

If you had grown up around me though you could have witnessed a couple of RBSD guys who I would take over any boxer or wrestler in a real fight smashing people in real fights.

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
Ye, I think Irish and I are sort of on the same page here. I like your point about it becoming a boxer v mma analogy, and I agree.

In my opinion, what has won me the fights I’ve found myself in has been hitting harder and faster, on a straighter line than the guy who has made me fight. That, raw aggression and the ability to instinctivly move my head once i’m in range, before and after punching, has been all that it has taken to win convincingly. Were I to find myself one guy against many, which I fortunately havent since I was a lot younger, if I couldnt run, I’d be expecting a beating, inspite of my mad skillz. Unfortunately round me, hitting the biggest guy is just a cue for a smaller guy to stab you. Noone is going to run :(.
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Seriously though, how long does it learn to hit hard, fast and in a straight line at point blank range? I teach that skill to total beginners all the time and it takes maybe a couple hours for most to be able to do it reasonably proficiently. Probably a few months before they become proficient, and probably about a year before they become very proficient. Of course there is always room for improvement and one must continue practicing to maintain their skill. But it’s really not that hard of a skill to learn, especially when you’re as close as many fights start, and any of my students have the power to KO most people they might encounter in a real fight with only a couple months worth of training.

Now, getting past one’s mental/emotional hurdles and being able to actually perform anywhere close to how they do while training on the other hand can take quite a while (depending on the person’s temperament). That “getting used to violence/the stress of getting hit” aspect of boxing is very useful, but then it’s not isolated to just boxing.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
What takes so long to really get good at in boxing isn’t the punches, those can be taught in a relatively short period of time. It’s the timing, distancing, learning how to beat different types of opponents, basically strategy stuff which takes countless hours to really master. Some of that strategy however is predicated on the rules of boxing. Sure, the punches need to continue to be practiced (if for no other reason than to maintain your level of proficiency), but there is plenty of time (assuming that someone is training with the type of hours that Tyson trained) for development of other skills as well.

[/quote]

I totally disagree. The punches can be taught, but the dude can’t throw them with any proficiency - especially not in combinations - without an extraordinary amount of practice. This amount of practice is what makes boxers (and wrestlers, as I said) so dangerous.

Simple shit, over and over and over and over, until they’re brutally efficient in a few simple things. This works better than plans that include all sorts of other crap.

Who gives a fuck? We’re talking about streetfighting and krav maga. I don’t give two shit about any argument having to do with “in the ring” because it applies in no way to streetfighting.

And for that, my experience - my personal ones - have shown me that grappling is the surest way to the grave in the street - but I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here.

I am of that opinion that punchers are born. But again, my point is that I believe that a person who does one thing extraordinarily well - and this is whether its boxing or judo or wrestling or muay thai or even karate - is going to be much harder to deal with than someone who does a bunch of shit “okay”, which is what I tend to see happening with people in RBSD courses and other martial arts that mix too much garbage in.

And also, I tend to agree with Londonboxer that the people who are drawn to combat sports like boxing or wrestling from an early age are probably a bit more rough around the edges and are just going to know how to deal with shit better than most other people.

For example, how bout we use the real Mike Tyson as an example?

Hmm… happened under a minute, he was threatened with a weapon and by two or three possible opponents, and one guy ends up knocked out. And it wasn’t Mike.

And also, last one - it takes NO skill to “Ground and pound.” Besides being a supremely gay term, it’s so fucking simple that monkeys could do it. Hell, monkeys probably do do it and that’s where we got it from. I wouldn’t even list that as worth mentioning.

See, I think the majority of the people in the “RBSD” world could do without nearly every piece of the “complex effective set” until they’ve practiced the absolute basics in wrestling and boxing for about five years…

Hey, they’re playing the game. I’ve played the game, I know exactly what it means. I’m not saying to ignore the force limitations imposed by given situations, but I am saying that if you’re a streetfighter, you’re going to be a bit more lax on all this kind of thing cause you don’t really care all that much.

This is why this shit is no good so many times… because they show you all this shit but never really say, “This is when to use it.” And even if they do, hell, there’s no way to replicate the situations you’re going to be in, so the odds of going overboard and busting some guy up too badly are very high.

Listen, I like boxing because it improves your balance, makes you learn how to take a punch thrown by someone who knows how to do it, instills head movement, sharpens reflexes, and drills in how to counterattack immediately while staying on your feet. It helps you deal with surprises by ingraining the same simple things into you over and over and over … And in these things, its my opinion that no other art comes close.

But really, this ain’t about my love for boxing. You don’t have to tell me these situations, I’ve either been through them or I’ve seen them happen. Like I said, shit happens in a fight and you’re not going to win them all. There’s a good chance you’ll get killed, especially because most guys never come at you square and use weapons and don’t give a fuck.

But I don’t think that your typical RBSD guy, with his multiple mediocre skillsets and advanced complex training things, is going to fair any better than a good boxer or wrestler.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I think that too many people get in the habit of addressing street violence - which is what we’re talking about here - as if it were some face off between two opponents. It isn’t.
[/quote]

That’s the point I made before, not all fight start standing face to face and are preceded by posturing, “jawing” at each other, are one on one, unarmed, etc… That said, that scenario can and does happen.

All of those are also generalizations. I’ve been totally sober and had someone else who was totally sober try to start something with me. I’ve had crazy people try to start things in broad day light in highly populated places for seemingly no reason. I’ve had drunk people try to start things at parties. The point is you just don’t know who, when, where, or how many people you might have to fight in a real fight, or why it might start. It could also start from ANY orientation between the two of you or while you are in any position (which is yet another reason why IMO it’s best to be well rounded).

Those are all great rules to try to adhere to. But what happens if you’re already on the ground when someone attacks you? What happens if you accidentally wind up there or someone takes you there against you will? You’ll be wishing you learned some takedown defense or some escapes if that happens. Unfortunately boxing teaches neither.

You can’t ever truly replicate a “real” fight, the most you can do is to make a drill/situation “realistic”.

[quote]
Like I said, even now, we’re getting into a discussion about RBSD Mike Tyson vs. boxer Mike Tyson which is ridiculous in itself because as soon as you’ve got them “squaring off” against each other, you’re getting away from what RBSD’s premise is, which is self defense, not fighting.

Who really wins in that competition? The Mike Tyson who hit first, the MIke Tyson with the knife, the Mike Tyson with the friend who hits you with a bat before you even get near him. Who fucking knows.

But the idea of “more tools in a toolbox” isn’t going to mean that one beats the other… it’s the street man. It’s nearly a total tossup every time you get into it. [/quote]

See, but the RBSD Mike would be better prepared for a wider range of scenarios than pure boxing Mike. You are right, you never know. Are you going to need to know how to deal with a sucker punch? Are you going to need to know how to deal with someone coming at you with a bat, or crowbar? Are you going to need to know how to get back to your feet quickly because you stepped on that beer bottle that you didn’t see and wound up on your back and now don’t want to get your head stomped in? Are you going to need to know how to avoid getting taken down by a big strong football player who’s gone a little overboard on the “vitamin S” and thinks you were checking out his girlfriend and is going to tackle you and pound you into a bloody pulp? You never know.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I think that too many people get in the habit of addressing street violence - which is what we’re talking about here - as if it were some face off between two opponents. It isn’t.
[/quote]

That’s the point I made before, not all fight start standing face to face and are preceded by posturing, “jawing” at each other, are one on one, unarmed, etc… That said, that scenario can and does happen.

All of those are also generalizations. I’ve been totally sober and had someone else who was totally sober try to start something with me. I’ve had crazy people try to start things in broad day light in highly populated places for seemingly no reason. I’ve had drunk people try to start things at parties. The point is you just don’t know who, when, where, or how many people you might have to fight in a real fight, or why it might start. It could also start from ANY orientation between the two of you or while you are in any position (which is yet another reason why IMO it’s best to be well rounded).

Those are all great rules to try to adhere to. But what happens if you’re already on the ground when someone attacks you? What happens if you accidentally wind up there or someone takes you there against you will? You’ll be wishing you learned some takedown defense or some escapes if that happens. Unfortunately boxing teaches neither.

You can’t ever truly replicate a “real” fight, the most you can do is to make a drill/situation “realistic”.

Not quite got to grips with quoting individual lines yet, but I only really wanted to respond to the last paragraph. There are lots of ‘scenarios’ you present there, and I think that is part of the problem. I dont think you need a thousand different solutions to all these.

You ask, are you going to know how to deal with a sucker punch? If i sucker punch you, there is no dealing with it, there is only a knockout. No gloves, well disguised, just about everyone is getting KO’d.

If someone comes at me with a bat, or a crowbar, I am running away. If they surprise me with it, I’m still running away, because anywhere someone has time and space to swing a weapon like that, you have time to create and angle and fuck off fast. For the record, I have had someone and their son come at me with a bat over their daughter(so for scenario’s sake, 2 against 1, 2 armed, 1 unarmed) and I ran the fuck away like a whippet on ephedrine. You dont need to know how to fight in that situation, you need to bugger off, in a hurry. Anyone who needs that taught to them is better off removed from the genepool.

Again with the bottle over the head scenario: if you get bottled, even round me where there are the kind of people who would bottle their own mothers, i’ve still never seen it happen to anyone that hadn’t done something stupid to find himself in that situation. Even in the kind of zoos i’ve been out at, you dont get bottled and beat up in public for nothing by a group of people.

With the angry footballer scenario(assuming american?!? I’d laugh if an Enlish footballer started on me), boxing is, in my opinon, the exact skill you do want. Either you have to fight, in which case you want to hit him, probably in the windpipe, or again you have the time to get away. If a 300lb guy who can over head strict press 250lbs gets his hands on you, whatever fancy shit you know, you are going to take a beating, and the kind of things that will be effective, eye gouging etc, are not things anyone has to teach me for them to be instinctive if and when i find myself fighting a giant.

I don’t want to go into the Boxer v MMA streetfight scenario, because I disagree with you massively, in that I think it is a retarded analogy. But it is another debate, one that noone is ever going to see eye to eye on.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I totally disagree. The punches can be taught, but the dude can’t throw them with any proficiency - especially not in combinations - without an extraordinary amount of practice. This amount of practice is what makes boxers (and wrestlers, as I said) so dangerous.
[/quote]

Yes, they can throw them with decent proficiency, and in combination. After all we’re talking about a real fight here right? Not a boxing match. If you are going to stick to your “strike first, be vicious and aggressive” mantra, then all they have to do is be able to throw fast, straight line punches over and over (adding in more power if need be) until the opponent goes down, or gives them the opportunity to flee the scene. The only reason to add in circular/angular punches would be if the opponent somehow stops the straight ones and doing so isn’t too hard to add into the combinations.

Seriously, they’re not that hard to learn or teach if you break them down into their biomechanical principles. Obviously if you want to get to the point of professional boxer/kickboxer status you have to put in your time on them, but again it’s knowing when and why of punching/striking that takes so long to master, not the punches/strikes themselves.

I’ve never said that simple is bad, just that boxing is too simple in and of itself. As Einstein said, “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler”. You’re clinging to boxing because it’s what you know and you want to believe that it has all the answers, but it just simply doesn’t. That’s not a knock on boxing, it’s just reality.

How does it not apply to street fighting? The way they teach you to stand in boxing leaves your legs too wide apart and with too much weight on the front foot, making you very susceptible to getting blasted in the legs or even have your knee broken by a hard kick in a real fight. You also would not be able to get your front leg out of the way in time if a good wrestler wanted to grab it and take you down with it, and since you only trained boxing, your chances of stopping him once he got a hold of it would be nill.

And honestly that is not a knock on boxing, it’s a very specific skill set designed for a very specific context (sporting context no less).

There are very few reasons why someone who is smart would actually want to go to the ground in a real fight (and I’m not talking about “grappling”, but “ground fighting”), but even if we were to just assume that not wanting to go to the ground was the goal, boxing isn’t going to teach you anything, nothing, zilch, nada in terms of takedown defense, or how to get back up if you do wind up there.

Doing one thing extraordinarily well can be a great asset. But only serves your purpose if you are in a context which favors that thing. Who would win in a real fight, Mike Tyson or Alexander Karelin? Kinda depends doesn’t it? If Karelin sneaks up behind Mike and grabs a hold of him, Mike is dead in the water. But if they’re standing face to face, Mike is probably gonna KO “the experiment”.

Special forces guys are the best living examples of what I’m talking about. They’re seldom the best at anything, but they are very good at everything.

That’s why I chose to clone Tyson rather than to have him fight someone else. Individual temperament is something that definitely has to be taken into consideration. However, from my experience anyhow it doesn’t matter if you are talking about boxing, wrestling, judo, bjj, or RMA, people that tend to be drawn to it (and stick to it for extended periods) tend to be rough and tumble types who like to mix it up.

You are actually wrong. It does take skill to ground and pound. First you need to be able to maintain the position (control the opponent there), which isn’t all that easy, especially if they’re bigger than you or know what they’re doing in terms of escaping. Second, you need to know how not to break your hand on their head, elbows/forearms, or the ground while still being able to generate enough force to do substantial damage and still being able to maintain your position. Third, since we’re talking about reality, you need to be able to stay aware of what’s going on around you so you don’t have someone walk up and smash you over the back of the head with a bar stool or the opponent doesn’t reach down, grab a boot knife and start punching holes in you.

You are a boxer though, and they teach nothing about this skill set in boxing, so I’m not surprised you think it’s so simple.

Five years may be a little long (assuming that they’re training hard and consistently), but I’ll agree that the “complex effective” stuff should be saved until the basics are firmly grasped.

But we aren’t talking about “street fighters” in the sense of someone who goes out looking to get into fights. No good RMA’s are going to teach, promote, or in many cases even allow that type of behavior. I know that if I found out that any of my students were going out looking for fights and using what I teach them, that’d be the end of their training with me.

That “thug” mentality is something that is more prevalent in sport based systems because they don’t teach anything about legal/moral use of force issues, how to solve problems without using your fists, or that avoiding violence is the best way to win. Many people come into combat sports already having experienced violence in one form or another and are looking for ways to solve it. Unfortunately since all combat sports are geared purely towards “active combat”, all they learn are more effective ways to continue that violence and in many cases no guidance as to when to use it or other effective non violent skills.

Then those are crappy RMA schools you’ve been to because “when to use it” should be explained pretty much all the time. At least good RMA schools give you verbal and postural self defense tactics to attempt to talk you way out of violence, or awareness training and avoidance guidelines to help you stay out of potential bad positions in the first place. Boxing teaches you how to punch very effectively, but no non physical skills. Never heard of someone being arrested for effectively talking their way out of a fight, but I know plenty who’ve been arrested for punching someone in the face.

Well as you, I, and several others have mentioned, most RBSD guys don’t train anywhere near as hard as good amateur (let alone professional) boxer or wrestler. Therefore, yeah I would actually agree that your “typical” RBSD guy probably wouldn’t do as well. That’s not because their system is inferior though, it’s because they just don’t put in the same amount of effort.

If I decide to challenge a group of friends to a football game and for the year leading up to the event they are out on the field 6 hours a day 5-6 days a week just scrimmaging and I on the other hand manage to acquire the New England Patriots (sorry to any haters) play book, but me and my team are only on the field maybe 2 hours a week practicing plays, who do you think is going to win once that game comes along?

Now, clearly my system has won several super bowls in the NFL, so it’s a proven effective system created by a professional coach. Their system is pretty much just made up on the fly. But they out worked me and my team by leaps and bounds, and as a result they’re going to win.

Boxing and wrestling aren’t superior to good RBSD’s, their participants just usually outwork the RBSD people to such a degree that they might appear superior in many cases.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Yes, they can throw them with decent proficiency, and in combination. After all we’re talking about a real fight here right? Not a boxing match. If you are going to stick to your “strike first, be vicious and aggressive” mantra, then all they have to do is be able to throw fast, straight line punches over and over (adding in more power if need be) until the opponent goes down, or gives them the opportunity to flee the scene. The only reason to add in circular/angular punches would be if the opponent somehow stops the straight ones and doing so isn’t too hard to add into the combinations.

Seriously, they’re not that hard to learn or teach if you break them down into their biomechanical principles. Obviously if you want to get to the point of professional boxer/kickboxer status you have to put in your time on them, but again it’s knowing when and why of punching/striking that takes so long to master, not the punches/strikes themselves.
[/quote]

First - I think that you and I have different definitions of what “Decently proficient” is. Most people throw punches that pale in comparison to a boxers shots.

But again, this isn’t about boxing per se, it’s about the degree of practice that a boxer or wrestler puts in that 90 % of the people involved in the MA’s never will, and that’s why they’ll win.

Bull-fucking-shit.

I have a decent amount of experience with BJJ, I have a shit ton of experience with Okinawan Goju-ryu karate (actually an inordinate amount) and a lot of experience with boxing.

Besides that, I have the experience from being in fights from the time I was in kindergarten up to the point of, well, this past May, and all the shit I’ve seen from leading a life of a general degenerate who, for a long time, spent five days a week in the bars.

I’m kind of insulted by this one Sento. I don’t make presuppositions about your experiences, you should watch yourself when you make them about others.

First, who taught you to box? You don’t keep “too much weight” on the front foot at all - in fact, the best boxers keep most of their weight on their back leg.

And again, you’re confusing “real fight” with “MMA.”

In real life, I’ve seen a kick thrown one time in a fight, and it was at me when I was in school. I caught the kid’s leg and literally threw him out the doorway. Most people, and I mean 95 percent of people, are not going to hit you with a leg kick in the real world.

Maybe the stray Muay Thai fighter might, but it’s exceedingly unlikely.

And the wrestler thing I’m not arguing with - like I said, I include them in the same idea.

I’m not comparing boxing vs. other arts, I’m saying that the degree of training spent in just one discipline is going to be much more worthwhile than a system that spends time teaching mediocrity (or less) at many things that most places do.

Again, I’m not arguing that.

Yea, but most people are not going to learn to be good at everything. This is not their lives - they’re fucking accountants or lawyers or desk jockeys or whatever else - they’re going to get a mediocre skillset in everything, not “be very good.”

For the time that most people have to spend training, they’re better off devoting all of that time to one thing than devoting some to this, some to that, and some to that over there. For the one altercation that they might get in in their entire lives, all that time doing one thing will be time better spent.

Like I said, sometimes I think you get so far into the theory of this that you forget the shit that actually happens in the street - you want it to be wrestler vs. boxer, MMA vs. whatever, but it fucking NEVER ends up like that.

Bullshit again. I’ve seen kids from the trailer park who have just as much a firm grasp of “ground and pound” as any doucher from MMA does, and they did it with just as brutal effect.

That may be. I’m not the person to ask about that - I’ve done all the shit (and very honestly, I still do sometimes) that you tell your students not too, and I’ve gone looking for fights plenty of times.

My kind of deescalation involves walking away. If I’m taunted or threatened while doing that, though, I’m turning around and fuck you, because, well I’m stupid like that. I’ll pick fights when I know I can win, I’ll shut up when I know I’m outgunned, I will wait for you to turn around if I really think I can’t win but you’ve done too bad an affront for me to forget about.

But you and me both know that a lot of the times that people come to you looking for training, they’re thinking of the hypothetical fight scenario - they are NOT thinking self-defense, and they probably don’t even know the difference between the two of them.

Maybe they find it out when they’re going through it, and maybe as they learn they change, but I’ll bet that most of the time they’re thinking about fighting.

And that- as soon as it enters their mind - means they’re playing into the game.

This has been my argument the entire time, and it’s why I was careful to throw wrestling in as well, and as I’ve thought about it, I’ve come to include judo and MT and even some TMA’s.

The RBSD guys I’ve seen are not that good at anything. That doesn’t mean there isn’t schools that don’t teach like this, just that there’s a lot that do… and Krav Maga has REALLY played into this by diluting their system very heavily.

[quote]

Boxing and wrestling aren’t superior to good RBSD’s, their participants just usually outwork the RBSD people to such a degree that they might appear superior in many cases.[/quote]

I really wish you and me didn’t have to go through all of this to reach this one simple point, which is what I was aiming at the whole time…

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
All of those are also generalizations. I’ve been totally sober and had someone else who was totally sober try to start something with me. I’ve had crazy people try to start things in broad day light in highly populated places for seemingly no reason. I’ve had drunk people try to start things at parties. The point is you just don’t know who, when, where, or how many people you might have to fight in a real fight, or why it might start. It could also start from ANY orientation between the two of you or while you are in any position (which is yet another reason why IMO it’s best to be well rounded).
[/quote]

Yes, they are generalizations, but in general, there’s the saying about running with the wolves at night… if you’re not out, you’re not going to see them.

Now, I’m absolutely aware that violence can and will strike at random to people that have no conception or expectation of it - but that pales in comparison to what those of us who are really out there see ALL the time.

In general, most of the fights and altercations - and I mean the serious, big ass, “Am I getting arrested tomorrow at work” altercations - happen when you’re fucked up.

This is all 27 ninjas with machine guns shit, and it was from the moment you took Mike Tyson and turned him into a RBSD guy instead of just Mike tyson.

Haha, you beat me to the weight distribution point, Irish. Anyone who puts ‘too much weight’ on the front foot against a half decent boxer is going to end up on their arse.

I’ll second Irish on the kicking thing as well. Noone has ever tried to kick me. I had a fat man try and knee me in the balls once, but he couldnt get out of his own way, let alone fight, and he got his range horribly wrong and fell over. The only time i’ve ever put someone down without throwing a punch. I didnt need a choke or finisher for the fucker. As far as i’m concerned, if you’re on your arse, I can take the opportunity to fuck off before the fuzz arrive, again, something I was never taught, but comes naturally and is effective.

Has the discussion turned into a big 'ol style vs style purse swinging cat fight yet or am I early?

These are always so much fun. I would play but I do not train boxing, RBSD/RMA, or Krav so I do not think I am eligible.

I am honestly having some trouble tracking the thread drift on this topic.

Is this a debate about what to train? I usually see that question best answered with regards to location/brick and mortar school/training opportunities than in general styles/Systems/Schools/Ryu. In other words “You are better training judo at 53rd and Dead Deer than Thai Boxing at 12th and Incest Ave. because the teacher there is decent and dose not come to class liquored up. Yup in East JerkWater, Pennsyltucky Judo is the best. Course if you want to box you can head over to WEST JerkWater, but the drive sucks.” Rather than “If you want to prepare optimally for street violence you should study______.”

I usually advise people to find something reasonably useful that they enjoy, that is taught well, and at a location/time/cost they can afford. Then if they find deficiencies, address them with additional training.

Couple or random notes:

I think you guys, meaning FightinIrish, Sentoguy, and LondonBoxer are all talking past each other quite a bit. At least it appears that way to me.

For the record I took Sentoguy’s comment about too heavy on the front foot to mean too heavy to check or evade kicks targeting that leg. Not too heavy to work from in a boxing frame of reference. In my experience there is definitely a difference, although it is one of degrees not absolutes.

Regards,

Robert A

Well, I was arguing, more or less, that I believe a good boxer or good HS wrestler - even ex-boxers/wrestlers - are just plan better fighters in general because of the degree of training that they underwent, and that I just don’t feel that most RBSD come close to that, even though they themselves often believe they do.

Somewhere in there the idea of being a “well-rounded” fighter came up and I generally dismiss that ideal entirely. I am, and always will be, the kind of person that thinks becoming brutally proficient in six punches or twelve strikes and having good footwork is better for streetfighting (and self defense as well) than being mediocre at many things.

I’ve said it before- I’ve been very influenced by guys like Kelly McCann and the combatives types, and I take it to heart that less is more. But I don’t think that sells classes out very much, and it doesn’t give RBSD an edge over competing RBSD instructors, so they come up with new bullshit to interject that keeps dumb bastards coming in when in reality, they just don’t need much of it.

[quote]Robert A wrote:
I usually advise people to find something reasonably useful that they enjoy, that is taught well, and at a location/time/cost they can afford. Then if they find deficiencies, address them with additional training.
[/quote]

Good point and I agree.

[quote]
Couple or random notes:

I think you guys, meaning FightinIrish, Sentoguy, and LondonBoxer are all talking past each other quite a bit. At least it appears that way to me.

For the record I took Sentoguy’s comment about too heavy on the front foot to mean too heavy to check or evade kicks targeting that leg. Not too heavy to work from in a boxing frame of reference. In my experience there is definitely a difference, although it is one of degrees not absolutes.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Exactly what I meant.

For the record I was taught boxing by Joe Lewis and a couple of his students (my main instructors). If you want me to recap Joe’s lineage/credentials in boxing I’ll do so, but believe me he knows what he’s talking about when it comes to that subject.

I was taught not to stand like Russ is advising above however because unlike a boxing context like Russ is addressing, I may have to worry about kicks to the legs and standing like that will get my legs drilled or even knee shattered. I also may have to deal with a wrestler shooting for my legs, and having them wide like that is going to make it nearly impossible for me to get the lead one out of the way in time.

However, I really like Robert’s point about it being degrees rather than absolutes. There may be times when I would adopt a very wide stance (for instance if I needed more stability to brace for an impact, or I’m on an unstable surface) or a very narrow stance (for instance the opponent pulls a knife and I want to try to stay out of range until I can access my own weapon) depending on the circumstances. If I were in a boxing match I might want to adopt Russ’s stance.

I think Robert is also right that we may be talking past each other so, in an attempt to simply bullet point my views on the subject:

  1. RMA people generally don’t put nearly the same amount of time or effort into their training as boxers, wrestlers, judoka or other sport based combat athletes do. This is not the fault of the systems themselves or any indication as to their relative inferiority/superiority however, but the individuals who practice that system.

  2. Boxing (and the other combat sports) have the advantage of being highly established and at least more homogeneous in terms of what they teach than RBSD/RMA arts. In this way they are often very “safe” bets if someone is looking for a skill set that is going to actually teach them a useful skill set for fighting/self defense. It also has the advantage of being very wide spread and generally affordable to train in.

  3. RMA’s have an advantage over combat sport arts (like boxing) in that they offer not only “active combat” skills, but also “pre-active combat” skills such as verbal and postural self defense tactics, awareness training, address legal and moral issues that the students might want to consider/encounter, and generally offer a more complete set of skills (and how to defend against said skills) to allow the student to adapt to a greater range of possible types of self defense situations. After all, the types of situations a 20 year old male might encounter are very different from that of a 45 year old male, or a 20 year old female, or a 65 year old female. All have the right to learn how to defend themselves though and a good RMA should be able to teach all of them something useful that with practice they will be able to utilize effectively.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Exactly what I meant.

For the record I was taught boxing by Joe Lewis and a couple of his students (my main instructors). If you want me to recap Joe’s lineage/credentials in boxing I’ll do so, but believe me he knows what he’s talking about when it comes to that subject.

I was taught not to stand like Russ is advising above however because unlike a boxing context like Russ is addressing, I may have to worry about kicks to the legs and standing like that will get my legs drilled or even knee shattered. I also may have to deal with a wrestler shooting for my legs, and having them wide like that is going to make it nearly impossible for me to get the lead one out of the way in time.
[/quote]

Well, the way I’ve been taught, and it’s literally been drilled into me, is that you keep most of your weight on your back foot and you don’t lean forward at all - not like Russ’ video at all.

I don’t like the way Russ has his stance - kid leans too far forward and he’s off balance.

I can’t find a video that shows how I stand really, but just watch any of Angelo Dundee’s fighers, because my coach learned in his camp.

Particularly Muhammad Ali and SRL - neither of them kept their weight on their front foot. That’s how I was taught - keep the back foot down, turn off it, don’t raise it up though, and don’t lean forward.

[quote]
I think Robert is also right that we may be talking past each other so, in an attempt to simply bullet point my views on the subject:

  1. RMA people generally don’t put nearly the same amount of time or effort into their training as boxers, wrestlers, judoka or other sport based combat athletes do. This is not the fault of the systems themselves or any indication as to their relative inferiority/superiority however, but the individuals who practice that system.

  2. Boxing (and the other combat sports) have the advantage of being highly established and at least more homogeneous in terms of what they teach than RBSD/RMA arts. In this way they are often very “safe” bets if someone is looking for a skill set that is going to actually teach them a useful skill set for fighting/self defense. It also has the advantage of being very wide spread and generally affordable to train in.

  3. RMA’s have an advantage over combat sport arts (like boxing) in that they offer not only “active combat” skills, but also “pre-active combat” skills such as verbal and postural self defense tactics, awareness training, address legal and moral issues that the students might want to consider/encounter, and generally offer a more complete set of skills (and how to defend against said skills) to allow the student to adapt to a greater range of possible types of self defense situations. After all, the types of situations a 20 year old male might encounter are very different from that of a 45 year old male, or a 20 year old female, or a 65 year old female. All have the right to learn how to defend themselves though and a good RMA should be able to teach all of them something useful that with practice they will be able to utilize effectively. [/quote]

I don’t disagree with any of this. I agree we may have been talking past each other.

x 2

Common sense has entered the thread. It must have run its course.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Well, I was arguing, more or less, that I believe a good boxer or good HS wrestler - even ex-boxers/wrestlers - are just plan better fighters in general because of the degree of training that they underwent, and that I just don’t feel that most RBSD come close to that, even though they themselves often believe they do.
[/quote]
Regretfully so. Most men believe themselves to be exceptional fighters, marksman, and lovers with no requirments for of experiance or evidence to support them. I can’t speak to the latter, but for the first two it is often not so much “delusions of grandeur” as “delusions of adequacy”. Something that martial/combat sports do is allow/mandate that skills be practiced under pressure so that is less common. You can only convince yourself you are God’s Gift to prizefighting until your first sparring session with a pro.

The issue I have with “well rounded” is that it is so context dependent that it is meaningless unless everyone in the discussion agrees on the context. I doubt if I said that boxers need to be well rounded so that they can deal with the various challenges/problems that different opponents pose I would get much static from you or LondonBoxer. In this case “well rounded” meaning able to fight on the inside and outside, able to box and yet not go to pieces in a slug-fest(whichever one they may prefer), able to handle being pressed/pressured yet able to attack/initiate, dictate the pace with a jab/able to find a way even if the jab doesn’t land, ect. Now, of course you play to your strengths, but you also have to be able to survive long enough to get back to your “A” game.

On the other hand some people use “well rounded” as an excuse to just train/play at a ton of things and never put the work in to get competent at any of them. This is a shitty idea.

The difference between the two is the difference between the pejorative “Jack of All Trades, Master of None” and the complementary “Jack of All Trades, Master of None. Yet 'oft times better than a master of one.”

I wrote about the hazards of shitty cross training in Roundhead’s Grappling thread. I’ll just recap to say adding tools/skills is only truly usefull if they allow you to handle/solve a problem you could not otherwise, or allow for a greater economy/less cost in terms of blood in solving an existing problem. Saying “There is more than one way to skin a cat” is fine, but I really only need one way. I may however need several ways of acquiring said cat, and if dogs or rabbits are a potential problem I had damn well better make sure these methods will work for them as well.

[quote]
I’ve said it before- I’ve been very influenced by guys like Kelly McCann and the combatives types, and I take it to heart that less is more. But I don’t think that sells classes out very much, and it doesn’t give RBSD an edge over competing RBSD instructors, so they come up with new bullshit to interject that keeps dumb bastards coming in when in reality, they just don’t need much of it.[/quote]

No Argument here. That is why I say it is more school/teacher/coach dependent than a question of “which style should I train”.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Well, the way I’ve been taught, and it’s literally been drilled into me, is that you keep most of your weight on your back foot and you don’t lean forward at all - not like Russ’ video at all.

I don’t like the way Russ has his stance - kid leans too far forward and he’s off balance.

I can’t find a video that shows how I stand really, but just watch any of Angelo Dundee’s fighers, because my coach learned in his camp.

Particularly Muhammad Ali and SRL - neither of them kept their weight on their front foot. That’s how I was taught - keep the back foot down, turn off it, don’t raise it up though, and don’t lean forward.
[/quote]

Good to hear that you don’t make the same mistake that Russ’s kid is making. Personally I prefer to keep my weight evenly distributed (because you never know which way you might have to shift it and if you choose either extreme it’s going to take you longer to go the other way), but it’s interesting to hear how different coaches approach things.

Also interesting that you’ve been taught not to raise the back foot. Is that ever (like you don’t raise it when you throw a straight right)? Or just, not while you’re standing/moving?

Cool. And sorry if I came across as insinuating that you didn’t have experience before. What I meant to say was that you haven’t seemed to have good experiences with RMA (judging by some of your comments earlier in the thread) and as a result of these bad experiences (and good experiences learning boxing and using it/seeing other boxers in real fights) feel that boxing has more to offer. What I was saying though is that while a great skill set to have (and I’d advise anyone to train boxing if they don’t already) boxing in and of itself is not a complete RMA (in that it doesn’t address pre-active combat strategies, weapons, legal/moral issues, etc…). But perhaps it has and continues to serve your purposes when it comes to fights/self defense, so by all means keep doing what’s been working for you.

This really is refreshingly mature, lads.

It’s clear we have been talking past each other a lot. I am a good part to blame for this, for focusing on the actual fighting side, rather than acknowledging the complete RMA system and what that has to offer. The trouble, I think (and maybe I speak for Irish here too) is that where I’m from, you get to recognise trouble from a mile away from the moment you’re out the womb, otherwise life can become pretty unpleasant.

For me, it is difficult to appreciate that some people won’t automatically act as I act, and take precautions I take when wandering around a bad area. For me, the way you choose to physically defend yourself is really the only relevant factor, since I can already spot trouble, diffuse it, recognise when to run the fuck away, or even when you’ve got to plant your feet and fight. I didnt look at the argument dispassionately, and only looked at it from my narrow range of experience, in which boxing has saved me from getting fucked up on a number of occassions.

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
This really is refreshingly mature, lads.

It’s clear we have been talking past each other a lot. I am a good part to blame for this, for focusing on the actual fighting side, rather than acknowledging the complete RMA system and what that has to offer. The trouble, I think (and maybe I speak for Irish here too) is that where I’m from, you get to recognise trouble from a mile away from the moment you’re out the womb, otherwise life can become pretty unpleasant.

For me, it is difficult to appreciate that some people won’t automatically act as I act, and take precautions I take when wandering around a bad area. For me, the way you choose to physically defend yourself is really the only relevant factor, since I can already spot trouble, diffuse it, recognise when to run the fuck away, or even when you’ve got to plant your feet and fight. I didnt look at the argument dispassionately, and only looked at it from my narrow range of experience, in which boxing has saved me from getting fucked up on a number of occassions.
[/quote]

Cool. :slight_smile:

I’ve seen a lot of videos, and i can say that its seems preety functional for its prupose