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Opinions of Krav Maga?

[quote]LondonBoxer123 wrote:
This really is refreshingly mature, lads.

It’s clear we have been talking past each other a lot. I am a good part to blame for this, for focusing on the actual fighting side, rather than acknowledging the complete RMA system and what that has to offer. The trouble, I think (and maybe I speak for Irish here too) is that where I’m from, you get to recognise trouble from a mile away from the moment you’re out the womb, otherwise life can become pretty unpleasant.

For me, it is difficult to appreciate that some people won’t automatically act as I act, and take precautions I take when wandering around a bad area. For me, the way you choose to physically defend yourself is really the only relevant factor, since I can already spot trouble, diffuse it, recognise when to run the fuck away, or even when you’ve got to plant your feet and fight. I didnt look at the argument dispassionately, and only looked at it from my narrow range of experience, in which boxing has saved me from getting fucked up on a number of occassions.
[/quote]

Cool. :slight_smile:

I’ve seen a lot of videos, and i can say that its seems preety functional for its prupose

From my experience, a lot of people who do that stuff are pretty arrogant and delusional. I think it’s good for learning aggressive retaliation and very basic survival skills but it eventually gets old if one wants to move up in skill level. I would compare it to women’s self-defence courses or the stuff every male conscript gets taught in various countries. Hand-to-hand combat does not have much relevance in modern warfare and the training is short and basic, and that’s what these ‘realistic’ systems are based on.

When questioned about effectiveness, everything eventually comes up to the “too deadly for the ring” thing and there are no statistics about this or that art “on the street” so it’s impossible to refute it being ineffective either.

I’ve never heard of anyone managing to hit a moving person square in the eye and the cases of real life throat chops are few as well; movie stuff mostly. Some of this ‘illegal in the ring’ stuff happens regularly in boxing yet it does not stop the man, not always anyway. Another thing the ‘realist street fighting AKA. kick in the balls’ crowd cannot answer is how come all the traditional arts like karate, japanese jiu-jitsu, hapkido, taekwondo, american kempo or pretty much any style that is not bound by the rules is NOT based on simplistic nut kicking and eye gouges?

[quote]Alffi wrote:
From my experience, a lot of people who do that stuff are pretty arrogant and delusional. I think it’s good for learning aggressive retaliation and very basic survival skills but it eventually gets old if one wants to move up in skill level. I would compare it to women’s self-defence courses or the stuff every male conscript gets taught in various countries. Hand-to-hand combat does not have much relevance in modern warfare and the training is short and basic, and that’s what these ‘realistic’ systems are based on.

When questioned about effectiveness, everything eventually comes up to the “too deadly for the ring” thing and there are no statistics about this or that art “on the street” so it’s impossible to refute it being ineffective either.

I’ve never heard of anyone managing to hit a moving person square in the eye and the cases of real life throat chops are few as well; movie stuff mostly. Some of this ‘illegal in the ring’ stuff happens regularly in boxing yet it does not stop the man, not always anyway. Another thing the ‘realist street fighting AKA. kick in the balls’ crowd cannot answer is how come all the traditional arts like karate, japanese jiu-jitsu, hapkido, taekwondo, american kempo or pretty much any style that is not bound by the rules is NOT based on simplistic nut kicking and eye gouges? [/quote]

I think a lack of experience in actually training in one of these “realistic” arts is where the skewed opinions and generalizations come from. I will speak for Krav Maga and where I train. The style is using techniques from Boxing, Muay Thai, Karate, Judo, Jujitsu and other arts. It is not something they just made up, It is a really well thought out system for the most part.

You are taught to look for open targets to employ your weapons on in a given situation(s) You would be suprised how many time peopld don’t protect their groin and it is a very effective strike in stopping your opponent or pausing him long enough to get away. If you trained Krav you would know that you spend lots of time on boxing how to punch with power and accuracy not haymakers or pissed off monkey looking shit. Same with Kicks It is fundamental based and builds from there to advanced techniques.

On the same note I trained in Tang Soo Do as a child I also live in Japan for 10 years 7 of which were on Okinawa where I trained Uechi Ryu and dabbled with GoJu Ryu, Shori Ryu and others. They most certainly do teach Kicking to the “Balls” Uechi Ryu kicks with the point of the big toe and will stick that toe in the hole where you balls hang out of.

Also GoJu Ryu teaches a way to “suck” or pull your balls in side your body to protect them so there must be a reason for that and I think it is because everybody kicks to the fucking balls so defend it or get taken out.

Another reason normal martial arts suck for real figting is that there is way way to much time put into the forms and looking a certain way and the art of it instead of working on movements that will work in combat. Look at any Karate guy and it will be hard to tell what kata he is using in a fight because it goes out the window.

You can pick up on stylistic cues but that is aobut it. This is where something like Krav Maga takes the things that work and teaches you to use them under stress and with power and explosiveness…and Extreme Prejudice.

This has a pretty interesting thread and I’ve read most of it so far. It does sound like a good Krav instructor is a solid MA for somebody that is just looking to learn how to best defend his family and himself. I looked up Sentoguy’s MA and that sounds effective too but I didn’t notice any schools in Las Vegas. Is there a general consensus on what the average guy should consider learning?

[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:
This has a pretty interesting thread and I’ve read most of it so far. It does sound like a good Krav instructor is a solid MA for somebody that is just looking to learn how to best defend his family and himself. I looked up Sentoguy’s MA and that sounds effective too but I didn’t notice any schools in Las Vegas. Is there a general consensus on what the average guy should consider learning?[/quote]

My opinion is that it depends greatly on what you want to learn, what you enjoy, and what is available.

Self defense was also a topic in Roundhead’s thread here:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_boxing_fighting_mma_combat/grappling_for_self_defence?id=4638321&pageNo=0

This is a bit of a train wreck but FightinIrish and Sentoguy make some great points in this thread:

I will state that your choices are probably pretty varied in Vegas. If true self defense of yourself and defense of loved ones is the goal than lethal force may well be justified. I believe Nevada has some pretty good firearms laws and many great training facilities are within driving distance.

Regards,

Robert A

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]Jaynick77 wrote:
This has a pretty interesting thread and I’ve read most of it so far. It does sound like a good Krav instructor is a solid MA for somebody that is just looking to learn how to best defend his family and himself. I looked up Sentoguy’s MA and that sounds effective too but I didn’t notice any schools in Las Vegas. Is there a general consensus on what the average guy should consider learning?[/quote]

My opinion is that it depends greatly on what you want to learn, what you enjoy, and what is available.

Self defense was also a topic in Roundhead’s thread here:
http://tnation.T-Nation.com/free_online_forum/sports_boxing_fighting_mma_combat/grappling_for_self_defence?id=4638321&pageNo=0

This is a bit of a train wreck but FightinIrish and Sentoguy make some great points in this thread:

I will state that your choices are probably pretty varied in Vegas. If true self defense of yourself and defense of loved ones is the goal than lethal force may well be justified. I believe Nevada has some pretty good firearms laws and many great training facilities are within driving distance.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Thanks for the information. I’ve been kicking it around for a while. I like the fitness aspect of it but I want something that is realistic in a real-life situation. For me if I can’t implement it in a real-life situation it’s not worthwhile.

To illustrate some earlier points I made about unarmed defenses against weapons - go to 27:15 in this video. This is what I would call a “real” unarmed defense… but then Kelly McCann is not some teacher that has not been through the shit, so to speak.

The whole video is worth watching, BTW.

http://www.56.com/u48/v_NDk5MjAyMzc.html

And towards the end of that video he starts teaching folding knife techniques… well, not techniques, per se, just how to use a folder.

And again, as I think I mentioned before, there seems to be commonality among techniques. The jab maneuver with a knife has little difference from a jab in boxing, and it’s probably real close to fencing. The elbows you throw and the way you cover up has little difference from Muay Thai.

These arts are awesome things.

Nice vid irish. Some good stuff in there. You should definitely check out Rich Ryan’s stuff if you like that stuff by McCann.

I do see lots of commonality in the techniques. I have been taught many of the same defenses etc, especially for close in dirty boxing.

Here’s another good one. He goes in a little more to the theory of “Expect to get cut in a knife fight” and how it many not be a good way to think.

http://www.56.com/u20/v_NDk5MTkzMjk.html

I just joined this site because I wanted to reply to this thread and get some training tips on bulking. Not sure if anyone covered what I’m about to post so I figured I’d get it out there

I have been doing Krav for about 3 years now, I am only a level 3 and have stopped training since I moved to Texas. I’ll say this level 1 is boring as shit and wont teach you much, it’s more abotu getting your muscle memory engaged. Most people get so bored or injured that they don’t continue.

If you make it to level 2 you will start implementing techniques and moves that you learned in level 1, its much more intense you will start sparing here and there learning advanced kicks and going into fighting scenarios.

To get into level 3 you must take another test. The level 2 to 3 test is intense if you don’t vomit or get a concussion you are a lucky soul. I was the recipient of 2 small concussions myself and one of my rotator cuff muscles decided to move off the ligament. After an ice bath and some Vicodin i was feeling decent but still in pain.

In any event the basic principle of Krav is to be aggressive and fast exploding in before your attacker has a chance to react. You do this by constantly training and placing yourself in different scenarios, building muscle memory. Once you become proficient in standing and ground sparing you start realizing how everything comes together and it all makes sense.

It’s violent and there are no rules except get home safely.

That said if your attacker is trained in Muai Thai and Jiujitsu you are most likely going to get your ass kicked. Don’t forget there is always someone more skilled than you. Basically if you go around thinking you are Chuck Norris after a few months of level 1 classes, you are going to get rocked.

My final point is, if you can talk yourself out of a situation go that route first. You never know how skilled the other person is or how many friends he has in the immediate area.

Again sorry if any of this was covered.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Here’s another good one. He goes in a little more to the theory of “Expect to get cut in a knife fight” and how it many not be a good way to think.

http://www.56.com/u20/v_NDk5MTkzMjk.html[/quote]

watched the first 13min. or so and it looks very very similar to Krav Maga. Thrusting defense. same principles and application. You must get the defense down pat and protect your self before you can ever move to a cavalier or takeaway situation.

[quote]shadycrew31 wrote:
I just joined this site because I wanted to reply to this thread and get some training tips on bulking. Not sure if anyone covered what I’m about to post so I figured I’d get it out there

I have been doing Krav for about 3 years now, I am only a level 3 and have stopped training since I moved to Texas. I’ll say this level 1 is boring as shit and wont teach you much, it’s more abotu getting your muscle memory engaged. Most people get so bored or injured that they don’t continue.

If you make it to level 2 you will start implementing techniques and moves that you learned in level 1, its much more intense you will start sparing here and there learning advanced kicks and going into fighting scenarios.

To get into level 3 you must take another test. The level 2 to 3 test is intense if you don’t vomit or get a concussion you are a lucky soul. I was the recipient of 2 small concussions myself and one of my rotator cuff muscles decided to move off the ligament. After an ice bath and some Vicodin i was feeling decent but still in pain.

In any event the basic principle of Krav is to be aggressive and fast exploding in before your attacker has a chance to react. You do this by constantly training and placing yourself in different scenarios, building muscle memory. Once you become proficient in standing and ground sparing you start realizing how everything comes together and it all makes sense.

It’s violent and there are no rules except get home safely.

That said if your attacker is trained in Muai Thai and Jiujitsu you are most likely going to get your ass kicked. Don’t forget there is always someone more skilled than you. Basically if you go around thinking you are Chuck Norris after a few months of level 1 classes, you are going to get rocked.

My final point is, if you can talk yourself out of a situation go that route first. You never know how skilled the other person is or how many friends he has in the immediate area.

Again sorry if any of this was covered. [/quote]

How did you manage to get two concussions during a green belt test?

I had the same question. was it the fall breaks? ^^^^

how can you get two concussions with one brain?

sorry just kiddin

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Here’s another good one. He goes in a little more to the theory of “Expect to get cut in a knife fight” and how it many not be a good way to think.

http://www.56.com/u20/v_NDk5MTkzMjk.html[/quote]

Watched the whole thing. The gun stuff was really solid, I’ve learned many of those same techniques and I like how he showed adjustments based on the length of the muzzle of the gun. I also liked that he mentioned several times about taking out the opponent as a means to “disarm” them. Important distinction which many people don’t realize.

In regards to the knife stuff, eh, it was ok, better than a lot of stuff out there and again I liked how he talked about wanting to attack back as soon as possible.

But, like I’ve mentioned before, the problem with knives (especially small/light/easily maneuvered ones) is that they don’t have to follow any type of predictable line of attack to do damage. So, thinking that you are going to be able to accurately track someone’s hand, determine the correct line of attack (which can change at any moment mid attack) and then be able to step off line or pull your abdomen out of the way like that is a little flawed.

Wish I had a video of Rich Ryan’s unarmed against the knife stuff to post in response because IME it’s got all of the same good points that McCann makes, but a better physical strategy for dealing with real un-cooperative attacks.

In regards to the whole “expect to be cut” mindset…

I think the problem lies in the wording. I understand what McCann (and you Irish) are saying when you say that it may not be a great mindset to go into the fight with (for the majority of the population) as a lot of people will become extremely nervous and might wind up totally freezing; petrified by fear.

However, like I said before, realistically you are probably going to get cut, so expecting not to get cut is also equally bad as when it does happen you might not be mentally prepared for it and freeze just the same.

I always liked the saying “prepare for the worst, but hope for the best”. So, maybe in this case something like “prepare yourself for the possibility of being cut, but hope that it doesn’t happen” or something like that.

[quote]Miss Parker wrote:

How did you manage to get two concussions during a green belt test?
[/quote]

We spared at the end of the hour test, I got hit twice with 2 different partners. They were mild concussions not a full on black out.

I also had an intro fight class before the test so I was already pretty beat up.

I never said I was smart! haha.