T Nation

Opinion on my First Cycle Choice?

Hi, I’ve been planning my first cycle for months now, but have not been able to afford it yet while paying my bills and going to school.
But, when I do get the money up I am definitely going to order from an online international source. I plan on doing this cycle over the winter as it will be easier to hide my use and prevent people from seeing the sides as much.

I’m 6 foot, 180 lb, 23 years old, around 10%body fat
been training and eating right all this year, off and on before this year.

I am having a hard time deciding on a first cycle.
I was going to do a beginners test cycle 500mg/week 2 shots. I know it is best to see how the test affects my body in this first cycle. However, I am having second thoughts about the sides associated with that dose of test. So, if I did do that I would spend a lot on ancillaries as well. Armidex, extra nolva, propecia, and possible something for acne (not accutane).

Since bang for my buck is a concern, and I will not be doing another cycle until the following winter I was also thinking about this cycle:

Week Deca Test E Dianabol Nolvadex clomid
Weekly Weekly Daily Daily daily
1 200mg 250mg 30mg - -
2 300mg 250mg 30mg - -
3 300mg 250mg 30mg - -
4 400mg 500mg 40mg 20 -
5 400mg 500mg 40mg 20 -
6 300mg 250mg 40mg 20 -
7 300mg 250mg - 20 -
8 200mg 250mg - 20 -
9 - - - 20 50

This cycle I think would give me more gains and I would not have to spend as much money on ancillaries because there would not be such a high dose of test. The only ancillary I would use would be armidex at .25mg per day to keep down the water retention/gyno and possibly some nizoral shampoo.

Without the cost of all the ancillaries this cycle would cost approx. that same as the beginners test cycle and I think may have less sides and more gains.

Please give me some opinions from some good people with experience!!! I would like to bulk to around 200lbs over this winter and experience as little sides as possible! I am prone to acne, thin hair (not baldness), and already have some gyno from puberty. Any responses are greatly appreciated!!!

I by no means am the most experienced guy on here but considering I am currently on my first cycle I thought I’d give you my input.

I’m just running 500mg test enth a week. I chose this because it is a highly recommended standard first cycle and because I wanted to see how my body reacted to gear. The effects come on slow but you will see great results if your training and diet are right.

If some negative side comes up you won’t know which compound in your proposed cycle is causing the problem if you don’t have the baseline comparison of knowing what test alone does for you.

Dbol aromatizes alot from what I understand. That adds a good amount of estrogen to your 250mg of test.

Deca has its own issues with sides that could require a very expensive ancillary, caber. (correct me if I’m wrong guys)

Just my thoughts. A test only cycle isn’t going to run you a lot of money and if you find a reputable research chem company you can get the ancillaries for very little money.

Whatever you choose, good luck!

your a bit inexperienced for a cycle, but here goes…

test is very cheap, your second cycle idea will cost you more. i dont know who your source is, a cut and dry test, a-dex, clomid cycle should run your around 250.

if you are worried about the side effects with test, why would you add compounds that are notorious for even more side effects? the side effects to 500mg test/wk arent that intense.

your test deca ratio is wayyyyy off.

dont run d bol for that long. its your first cycle you dont need 40mg of dbol. dbol will also fuck your gyno in the ass.

rethink you pct, if thats what you included in your cycle idea.

its you first cycle, keep it simple.

your 180lbs at 6’, go eat some meat. once youve gained at least another 30lbs of mass with good eating and training habbits then think about a cycle.

[quote]Dylanj wrote:

your 180lbs at 6’, go eat some meat. [/quote]

read this again

[quote]Game_over wrote:
Dylanj wrote:

your 180lbs at 6’, go eat some meat.

read this again[/quote]

viable in both ways id say. haha

The pct came up fuct in the post. Its 20 40 nolva clomid at the end.

The things I’m mosts concerned about are gyno and hairloss and acne. I know that my body would most likely recover from deca because Im young and healthy.

I agree that the dbol is slightly high and maybe I should save that for a second cycle, but I think that the deca and test would be good b/c the test would help combat the negative sides of the deca.

Also the low dose of test would mean less chance of hairloss, and possibly less gyno and acne. Is this wrong?

I know my weight is low but that is because I’ve been cycling my carbs and I’ve just about got the bottom 2 of the 6 pack showin’

Am I wrong that the test with deca would cause less sides?

The test should cancel out the repressiveness of the deca. But then I might need a more agressive PCT because the deca is harder to recover from.
Any more thoughts???

Quoted from what I read by BIGCAT:
“nandrolone a very safe bet for people at risk for prostate hypertrophy, acne and aggravated male pattern hair loss. At the same time its estimated that nandrolone is 2.4 times as anabolic as testosterone”
So instead of doing a test only cycle and losing my hair which is irreversible why wouldn’t deca w/ low dose test be safer cycle?
Wouldn’t the test combat the suppressive effects of the deca???

[quote]ActionYakson wrote:

So instead of doing a test only cycle and losing my hair which is irreversible why wouldn’t deca w/ low dose test be safer cycle?
Wouldn’t the test combat the suppressive effects of the deca???
[/quote]

You should not be cycling.

Also, if I am not prone to baldness, just thinning hair. Would the 2% nizoral shampoo be enough to prevent the hair shedding??
I know that 500/week is not the largest dose of test, and I know that there are other steroids that are much more notorious for causing hair loss.

I know I sound like a total noob, that cause I am!
I need help tho! There are a lot of conflicting views from my research. Please elaborate on why deca w/ low dose test is a bad idea!

[quote]ActionYakson wrote:
Quoted from what I read by BIGCAT:
“nandrolone a very safe bet for people at risk for prostate hypertrophy, acne and aggravated male pattern hair loss. At the same time its estimated that nandrolone is 2.4 times as anabolic as testosterone”
So instead of doing a test only cycle and losing my hair which is irreversible why wouldn’t deca w/ low dose test be safer cycle?
Wouldn’t the test combat the suppressive effects of the deca???
[/quote]
Deca would be a good choice in this instance, so might using Finasteride instead, but then you’d want to add a DHT compound anyway…

I would do a lot of research into all of the compounds and in cycling. I don’t like your ramping up and down or cycle lengths. Your PCT is outdated and Clomid only at those doses isn’t going to offer much.

Read the sticky here on cycles and see how others develop theirs. For a Test/Deca cycle I would plan something along the lines of:
Test at 400-600mg/week for 15 weeks
Deca at 400mg/week for 10 weeks
This allows the Deca to completely clear before PCT and allows for a much eaiser recovery. 5 extra weeks of Test wouldn’t be needed though and is mostly due to vial quantities (3 vials test, 2 vials Deca for example)
I would really consider a test taper, but don’t know what your future plans are regarding goals and timelines, or really want your short term plans are either. As others have said you really should get the bulk up a bit before you run a cycle, but there is nothing wrong with starting to plan it now while you gain that 20lbs of mass before hand - you need to realize that you will not be able to maintain ANY of the gains if you cannot naturally maintain more weight naturally.

[quote]ActionYakson wrote:
I know I sound like a total noob, that cause I am!
I need help tho! There are a lot of conflicting views from my research. Please elaborate on why deca w/ low dose test is a bad idea![/quote]
Here’s something I had to say on another thread that relates to Deca and Test ratios:

"I’ve ran Deca once and it was ran at twice the Test level without any problems other than at about week 9 ot 10 on it took awhile to get off, though this became a boon during the rest of the cycle and I have often though about adding Deca during future cycles for it�??s positive effect on �??control�?? though it can become work, and getting it on should never be work.

In general I recommend and would prefer to run my Test higher than Deca, but dependant on goals and whatnot, it’s not necessary by any means. As long as your test is high enough to maintain libido and Dht conversion (same thing really) then it doesn’t really matter too much how much Deca or especially some ratio (though that�??s a little too simplified). Although you could get into some problems with dht conversion from the Deca blocking receptors and therefore lowering the 5a-reductase enzyme which converts test into dht, but if that happened, which it could no matter how high the test was then it is easily fixed by supplying exogenous dht like Proviron or Masteron, even Winstrol might have a positive effect on the receptors to maintain enzyme production and therefore conversion from whatever amount of test was supplied. Obviously it�??s going to be individual dependant.

Deca binds much better than Test, and though strongly binding, exerts very little effect on the Prostate, Hairline and no Dht conversion and therefore little to no sex drive; thinking that you have to ‘flood’ your system with test or whatnot seems well faceted, but doesn’t mean much in the real world. I would add that it may be a safer precaution to run more test if someone were to run into that problem or didn’t wish to take other compounds - but the blanket statements of you must run test higher or especially the ratios that people come up with and state as a must-do fact are simply a little misguided. I’m not saying that it is bad advice to suggest to run test higher by any means, just that it is in bad faith to say that you must. I would however, always recommend to someone who has never done it before and wasn�??t adding other compounds like Masteron, dbol, etc to always run more Test than Deca to be on the safe side, but I wouldn�??t say that they would have too."

Basically its a precautionary strategy, and not based on science or logical theory. That being said though, I do recommend Test to be ran at an effecient dose both before other compounds are added and when other compounds are added (in general). So one would run 500mg/test as a cycle before adding other things (again, in general, as you have your reasons for adding Deca from the beginning) and when Deca would be added, one would still be running that effeicent Test dose of around 500mg. I would suggest 500-600mg/week Test and 400mg/week Deca for all around gains and effeciency. Though for the AR protective qualities of Deca, the dose could be ran much lower giving the option of droping the Deca dose if needed or desired.

Alright, wow! lots of good info, thanks man!

So if I was to run deca w/ test does the deca help prevent some of the negatives of test or no? (hair loss, acne)

I guess that I should really probably run the test only cycle to start just to see how it really effects my body before adding anything. (Basically what was said earlier in the post). I know it’s a relatively low dose but I’m scared of acne, gyno and hair loss!

Do you think I would be ok using 500 test/week with armidex (EOD), nolva on hand, and clomid for PCT???

Hopefully, if I just use nizoral shampoo I will not have any hairloss! I don’t really wanna drop the extra 50 bucks for the finasteride. I’ve read that it can cause gyno and the hair loss will show up after ur off of it.

Thanks again, really appreciated!

Think I might steal this guy’s cycle (Cron391) with a few small changes i made… It got a lot of good responses from his post

W 1-10 Test E 500mg/week
W 1 adex .25mg/daily
W 2-12 adex .25mg/EOD

W 11 Off (adex .25mg/EOD)

PCT

W 12 adex .25mg/EOD Clomid 200mg/daily
W 13 adex .25mg/EOD Clomid 150mg/daily
W 14 Clomid 100mg/daily
W 15 Clomid 50mg/daily

I guess I’ll still have nolva on hand, and washing with nizoral shampoo (2%) daily…
Does this seem like a relatively safe first cycle???

I want to bulk up over the winter months then be lean and cut when summer comes around. I’ll save the deca for next winter.

Is the clomid dose overkill? I’ve read elsewhere that 100/day for week 1 and 50/day for week 2 and 3 is enough… Or I could skip the clomid and just use the nolva for PCT, is there a preference?

Thanks to anyone who knows what they’re talking about and is willing to help!

[quote]ActionYakson wrote:

I’m 6 foot, 180 lb, 23 years old, around 10%body fat
been training and eating right all this year, off and on before this year.

I know my weight is low but that is because I’ve been cycling my carbs and I’ve just about got the bottom 2 of the 6 pack showin’

[/quote]

No and No. NO. Just plain NO.

You are too light because you are not eating enough to gain. You have part of the six pack because you are afraid of losing it in the process of getting big, not because of carb cycling. Carb cycling will keep you leanER if you are gaining, but bottom line, you have to put on fat.

I’m being honest with you man. You are not committed enough, as evidenced by your own words and your own physique. Put on 20-30 lbs of lean mass and you’ll be in the neighborhood. You simply have to stay committed for longer than a year man. Try 6 or 8. That means 6 or 8 years of constant steady work, not on and off crap. You shouldn’t be messing with hormones that can screw you up if you’re not committed enough to make physique changes naturally over the long haul.

Sorry Aragorn, but I’ve had my heart set on this for awhile.

I know I probly sound like a douchebag 2 u, but I am not a competitive bodybuilder… I just want to look and feel better about myself, have more confidence, and score more women!

I have researched the juice for awhile and I feel I’m physically and mentally ready for it. From everything I’ve read and watched it’s safe as long as its not abused. I would be perfectly happy bulking up to 190-200 and just maintaining that for awhile.

People I’ve read about have used juice with a lot less experience than I have and have not had ill effects. Even several famous people have used when they were as young as 16! And they are still healthy!

AAS can be perfectly safe as long as you monitor your blood and heart and use the correct protective measures.

[quote]ActionYakson wrote:
Sorry Aragorn, but I’ve had my heart set on this for awhile.

I know I probly sound like a douchebag 2 u, but I am not a competitive bodybuilder… I just want to look and feel better about myself, have more confidence, and score more women!

I have researched the juice for awhile and I feel I’m physically and mentally ready for it. From everything I’ve read and watched it’s safe as long as its not abused. I would be perfectly happy bulking up to 190-200 and just maintaining that for awhile.

People I’ve read about have used juice with a lot less experience than I have and have not had ill effects. Even several famous people have used when they were as young as 16! And they are still healthy!

AAS can be perfectly safe as long as you monitor your blood and heart and use the correct protective measures.

[/quote]

No you’re actually quite polite about it, thank you. I wasn’t talking about the safety aspect of the juice (although that can be quite dangerous if you get bad info or don’t do any reading), I was talking about your level of dedication.

I agree that it can be used quite safely and without permanent ill-effect, even if someone is marginally dumb when they go about it.

I’m not a competitive bodybuilder and never will be: I have no desire to step on stage in a banana hammock whatsoever and I don’t want to be 265 and ripped. But I’ve been in the game a few years, and the one thing I know is that you have to have the foundation of consistency there before you step into it.

Contrary to what people think, you actually have to be more anal and more dedicated while on. You have to be religiously fanatical about diet calories, macros, timing, training, cardio, sleep, vitamins, ANCILLARIES, sterile technique, everything.

A lot of guys reach for the juice before they really know what the hell they’re doing with they’re training and diet. They look to AAS as a crutch because they can’t figure out how to grow or get lean without it—because they’re being stupid or lazy.

So they do a cycle and then feel good and see gains-- even with the same stupid planning, training, and diet advice that they used before they went on AAS–and suddenly they don’t ever want to train naturally again because they’re convinced they need the drugs to do anything.

That isn’t true, they’re just too stupid to make progress naturally because they don’t stay consistent and they backslide after they come off every cycle. They stop training for a month or more after a cycle because they don’t have the desire to go to the gym.

They don’t WANT to do it. Little do they realize that this is precisely the reason they lose everything, or gain little in the first place. They don’t grind it out when its unpleasant or grueling or a drag. They go drink instead.

That’s why the foundation has to be laid and that’s why all the vets here yell at everyone else to eat more and train more and come back in 2 years for cycle advice. It’s why Prof X gets so irate at people.

The reason pro bb’ers get so big is that it’s their whole lifestyle. Day in and day out. The reason Caveman got to where he is, juice or not, its his lifestyle. Same with X, Bauer, jackreape, Dave Tate, everyone. It’s become ingrained from constant practice and dedication.

Honestly, consider this question: if you can’t be consistent over the long haul when training naturally, how can you be consistent after your cycle is over? You’ll just lose it all through negligence or partying laziness (‘scoring chicks man’). For that matter, how can you be disciplined enough to do everything right during your cycle?

Chicks are good man. Everyone could use more of them in their life… except maybe pushharder. Rat bastard that he is. But I want you to really consider that question.

Where are you going to be 1 year from now? Two years? Three?

I’m sure this sounds like a dick thing to say, and I don’t mean it to be that way at all, but that’s why we hammer it in to everyone as much as possible. Doesn’t matter what your goal is, whether its to be 260 and shredded or stay in your fighting weight class or be an photography model or whatever.

It’s never, ever, EVER about the short term dedication. Anyone can pull enough discipline together to do things right for 3-6 months. Most can do it even for a year. Longevity matters, and that’s why the foundation is so important.

You want a mere 10-15 lbs from your cycle (180-190/195). The things you say you want–confidence and self image–are things that come from within, never from without. A drug can never give that to you. It can temporarily boost them, but in the end it always comes down to what it was before.

10-15 lbs later, you’re still going to want more because you didn’t get your magically perfect physique. You’ll still see flaws, you’ll still feel the same.

On the cycle note, go back and read what Dylanj posted about your cycle.

Your test/deca ratio is way off. You want to fix that. The pyramid is a bad idea. Straight level doses. Your test is too low. You also don’t need 40 mg of dbol. And I would not run the dbol that long at all.

I’d actually rather you just run straight test E at 500mg/week. Simple, straight forward, and it works. But if you’re going to do this cycle, don’t run dbol for all 8 weeks. Just run it for 4 at a lower dose.

Also bump the test up to 500mg/week, no pyramiding. And find a good smaller dose for deca, also with no pyramiding.

Hope that helps.

Yea, thanks man, i agree, I’m not just looking for a short-term thing.

I am have a bachelor’s degree in health science and I plan on living a healthy lifestyle permanently. I am interested and always researching about diet and exercise, so that shouldn’t be a problem.
I am going to try the test e beginners cycle as soon as I get the money together. I would be happy with 15lbs that I could keep, but any more would be awesome. I will probably gain more as I will work out about 5 days a week, but I’m sure that I will lose about 10 lbs when I come off.
But I plan to continue working out after (3 days a week). And also taking some creatine after as well.
What other ancillaries are recommended besides arimidex and nolva? I was thinking about milk thistle also, am I missing anything?

Thanks again for helping a brother out

nah milk thistle is for liver support. Injectables don’t usually require extra liver support.

Be aware that your weight loss after the cycle will most likely be all water weight. Test causes water bloat so you’ll need to expect that. It is unlikely at your height/weight/experience that you will lose any real muscle mass. You should aim for about 20-25 lbs weight gain. You will probably lose between 5-10 lbs water afterwards. If you are low-carbing it, you will not gain as much water weight to begin with.

Eat your ass off. Keep carbs under control to control water bloat a bit–not really low carb per se, just don’t go eating pasta/pizza/chipotle every damn day. Concentrate on EFAs and protein.

Be aware that test E often takes time to “feel”, so your first week, maybe two will be “same as normal”. Some people feel stuff sooner, some later, so don’t worry too badly if you don’t feel anything until week 3.

You will probably not want to do anything when you come off. But you need to train regardless. Don’t have to be really high volume, especially as you’re recovering, but you gotta do something.

Start adex at 0.25 mg EOD while on cycle. If you need more, increase in small doses. You shouldn’t need more than 0.25mg/ED (ie–0.5 mg EOD). Estrogen too low is just as bad as estrogen too high. You might even go down in dose.