[quote]pinkponyz wrote:
…if you are not among the 5-10% who can keep on pulling/pushing behind the neck …[/quote]
Do yourself a favor and don’t pull fake statistics out your ass in an attempt to prove a point. It doesn’t help any.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Also, pull-downs in general suck for lats.
EVERYONE cheats. Cool to cheat at the end of a set, but not from the first rep. Pull-downs just invite poor form.
It’s like the difference between leg extensions and squats. Squats work more overall muscle groups than leg extensions. Same as chins work more than pull-downs.
[/quote]
As others have said, that is bullshit. Pulldowns can be very effective.
Peoples individual lack of form is not an indicator of an exercises effectiveness. Also, plenty of idiots cheat on pullups, usually worse than on pulldowns because thier bodyweight is too much. Seen in kicking, thrusting, and shitty range of motion.
Your analogy of comparing a nearly identical movement (pullups/pulldowns) to squats/leg extentions, two compeltely different lifts involving different muscles is pathetic. Not even remotely comparable.
I’ll see if I can retrieve my sources, or else just neglect that comment 
Long time since I read that study (and I believe it was in norwegian), unfortunately, so don’t hold your breath.
[quote]BlackSabbath wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Also, pull-downs in general suck for lats.
EVERYONE cheats. Cool to cheat at the end of a set, but not from the first rep. Pull-downs just invite poor form.
It’s like the difference between leg extensions and squats. Squats work more overall muscle groups than leg extensions. Same as chins work more than pull-downs.
As others have said, that is bullshit. Pulldowns can be very effective.
Peoples individual lack of form is not an indicator of an exercises effectiveness. Also, plenty of idiots cheat on pullups, usually worse than on pulldowns because thier bodyweight is too much. Seen in kicking, thrusting, and shitty range of motion.
Your analogy of comparing a nearly identical movement (pullups/pulldowns) to squats/leg extentions, two compeltely different lifts involving different muscles is pathetic. Not even remotely comparable.
[/quote]
The fact that you think pull downs and chins are identical shows you have no idea what you are talking about.
Lorisco: You are welcome to explain the difference, instead of picking on the other person.
[quote]pinkponyz wrote:
Lorisco: You are welcome to explain the difference, instead of picking on the other person.[/quote]
First let me say that I do pull downs, but only as an adjunct to chins and rows.
Chins activate the upper and lower (spine) lats, rear delts, biceps, traps, and core while pull downs only activate the upper lats and biceps. Also, unless you only do behind the heads pull downs it is nearly impossible to do pull downs to your chest and not cheat.
Most trainers and exercise physiologist will tell you the same thing.
Also, I think it’s a strength level issue. Guys who are not strong enough to do chins don’t like them, but guys who are love them. And to be honest, most gyms don’t have enough weight on the pull down machine to make it useful. Most only go to 250lbs.
Oh come the hell on people…
Don’t you ever get tired of this shit?
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Chins activate the upper and lower (spine) lats, rear delts, biceps, traps, and core while pull downs only activate the upper lats and biceps. Also, unless you only do behind the heads pull downs it is nearly impossible to do pull downs to your chest and not cheat.
[/quote]Say… what?
I suggest you try to do a few pull-downs with slightly lower weight and strict form, and you will feel it in your traps, core, lower lats and even your rear delts. If you still dont believe me, try again and this time do a drop-set.
And unless you do 3-4 reps or lower, it is definitely possible to keep a strict form… but if it is desirable to do so, is another discussion that does not belong here.
More on topic, I dislike behind the neck pull-downs, but that has a personal reason. Behind the neck pull-ups feels uncomfortable in my shoulders, so I avoid them until I’ve corrected any shoulder issues.
I just love doing pull-downs to the chest, with a narrow neutral grip 
So far it has built “a lot” of mass and strength too, my back width is what I have improved the most since I started training.
[quote]pinkponyz wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Chins activate the upper and lower (spine) lats, rear delts, biceps, traps, and core while pull downs only activate the upper lats and biceps. Also, unless you only do behind the heads pull downs it is nearly impossible to do pull downs to your chest and not cheat.
Say… what?
I suggest you try to do a few pull-downs with slightly lower weight and strict form, and you will feel it in your traps, core, lower lats and even your rear delts. If you still dont believe me, try again and this time do a drop-set.
And unless you do 3-4 reps or lower, it is definitely possible to keep a strict form… but if it is desirable to do so, is another discussion that does not belong here.
More on topic, I dislike behind the neck pull-downs, but that has a personal reason. Behind the neck pull-ups feels uncomfortable in my shoulders, so I avoid them until I’ve corrected any shoulder issues.
I just love doing pull-downs to the chest, with a narrow neutral grip So far it has built “a lot” of mass and strength too, my back width is what I have improved the most since I started training. [/quote]
Yeah bro, use whatever works. This is just my opinion and what has been effective for me and others. But by all means use what works for you.
As for the behind the head pulls; anatomically the focus actual moves off the lats if you go behind the head. So the best way to do them is to go only as far as the back of the top of the head and stop. That will keep the focus on the lats. So you can still do them with an inflexible or injured shoulder.
I got a lot stronger on BTN pullups recently. I have always been able to do pullups to the front but rarely if ever to the back. I wasn’t able to do them until I first started gaining strength on BTN pulldowns. Once I could rep close to my bodywieght, I gave the actuall pullup version a try and have had great workouts since.
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Chins activate the upper and lower (spine) lats, rear delts, biceps, traps, and core while pull downs only activate the upper lats and biceps. Also, unless you only do behind the heads pull downs it is nearly impossible to do pull downs to your chest and not cheat.
Most trainers and exercise physiologist will tell you the same thing.
Also, I think it’s a strength level issue. Guys who are not strong enough to do chins don’t like them, but guys who are love them. And to be honest, most gyms don’t have enough weight on the pull down machine to make it useful. Most only go to 250lbs.
[/quote]
How the fuck do pulldowns magically avoid activating rear delts and traps while pullups hit them? If you think those muscles are not being used in pulldowns, you have much to learn. When properly performed, the pulldown movement is IDENTICAL to the pulldown. You can change the area of emphasis by controlling where you bring the bar down, or by your degree of leaning back, but you CAN perform both movements identically.
Hey shithead, I’m getting my b.s. in kinesiology, area of concentration excersise science right now. I don’t need to ask one. I’m telling you that they work the same muscles, with pullups only hitting the core a bit more due to the lack of kneepads restricting the body.
You seem to be talking like 250 lbs on pulldowns is inadequate for your strength levels, yet you also are misinformed when you say that people can’t help but cheat on pulldowns. Perhaps you aren’t strong enough to be using the entire fucking stack if you can’t hit the damn movement properly. Is this above your head, man?
[quote]BlackSabbath wrote:
Hey shithead, I’m getting my b.s. in kinesiology, area of concentration excersise science right now. I don’t need to ask one. I’m telling you that they work the same muscles, with pullups only hitting the core a bit more due to the lack of kneepads restricting the body.
[/quote]
You don’t have to get abusive.
It is clear that you are a newbe. Some of the guys are PMing me and asking why I’m wasting my time with you, but when I was a newbe I wish someone would have helped me out (even if I was an asshole about it). So I’m going to give you some more info and then you can do whatever stupid thing you want.
So since you won’t believe me and think you know it all, maybe you will believe some of the authors on this site.
Here is just a few quotes and articles that state the superiority of chins for back development.
‘There’s no exercises equivalent to weighted chins to build the upper back muscles, rear deltoids and forearms. Chin-ups should be included in the training program of all athletes.’
http://www.T-Nation.com/article/bodybuilding/money_exercises&cr=
‘Chins are more demanding than cable pulldowns, but the results are worth it.’
http://www.T-Nation.com/article/bodybuilding/4_directions_to_a_kickass_back&cr=
‘Chins are probably a better option because you can increase the duration of loading on the lats and use more load in comparison along with an increase in the range of motion’
http://www.T-Nation.com/article/most_recent/common_exercise_misconceptions_part_2
‘While this exercise [pull downs] can’t replace the chin-up, it can be a useful exercise to strengthen the muscles involved in the chin-up’
http://www.T-Nation.com/article/bodybuilding/keep_your_chin_up
Now, STFU, stay in school. And when you get your Masters we will talk…
There seems to be a lot of variation between individuals in terms of shoulder mobility. Doing behind the neck anything will annihilate my shoulders.
Hey there shithead. You have a masters in Kinesiology? Oh thats right, you don’t. Newbe? Been training for 11 years. Not a single article you referenced supports your claim of pulldowns somehow avoiding activation of rear delts and traps, and magically only working biceps and lats. Of course they wouldn’t, because thats a load of shit. They work the same muscle groups.
If you have a preference towards pullups, great for you. That has nothing to do with your nonsense claim of pulldowns hitting only lats and bis. Learn to post references that back up the statements being argued. Good luck finding one that supports your claim that pulldowns don’t hit rear delts or traps.
Fucking hell, one of your own damn quotes goes against your own argument. ‘While this exercise [pull downs] can’t replace the chin-up, it can be a useful exercise to strengthen the muscles involved in the chin-up’ It is a useful adjunct because they work the same muscle groups. Oh no, people are pming you? Doubtful, nor do I care. If someone has balls to say something, they post it up for all to see.
Also, where the fuck do I claim to know it all? If I know it all, why would I be going to college, or reading a site to learn new info? Don’t resort to putting words in my mouth, shithead. Stay on topic. You want to prove that pulldowns hit exclusively bis and lats like you said before, go ahead. Good luck with that.
Lat Machine Pulldowns are great because you do not need use your total body wieght incase you want to give your back more work.but they shouldnt replace wide grip chins its standard for widening your back.
i say get up to 50 first because its not as strict as a movement as btn widegrips. so you can cheat a little don’t be that guy i see every day though i want to kick him onto the asstited pussy pull up machine. but take your time and build up strength so you wont hurt your self.