Only Doing Deadlifts, Bench Press and Rows

[quote]TheLifterdude wrote:
Clauden I do know both exercises work different muscles but I was wondering which one would be of most value because I want to keep everything as simple as possible.

And Yes I will try and get a video up of my squat form however I am currently without a camera but hopefully will get one soon[/quote]

Why is it complicated to do both?

Has anyone here ever tried a routine like this for a couple months. has anyone here ever met anyone who has an over developed postierior chain, is it posible. Squat, and dead are interchangeable, most high level PLers only train one or the other hard, and let the other one tag along. Ive never seen it, but believe if someone could dead 800lbs without ever squatting before, theyd squat 600 first time out. Same could be said about someone squatting 800, and never deadlifting. Moving one up, will always bring the other up. This is the theory behind west side training. You dont have to ram every thing into one program, somtimes your better to focus on a couple lifts, then switch to a couple different lifts. Lots of people train like this quite effectivly. People get stuck in one way of thinking, and trainig. Open minds equal big bodies. goodluck

I ran a program that consisted of squats, weighted dips, overhead presses, straight-arm pulldowns and barbell curls 3x a week for several months. It did me a lot of good.

Now, I’m running that program of CTs, which, as I mentioned above… is bench variations, deadlift and high pulls. I’m also training the overhead press, because I want to improve that.

It, too, is doing me a lot of good so far.

So yeah, give your plan a shot for a few months and go from there.

[quote]Ronald319 wrote:
You do not want to deadlift while skipping the squat… that would create strength imbalance between your posterior chain and your Quads which will lead to injury…

YOU HAVE TO SQUAT, only you don’t have to back squat, the front squat in VERY easy on the lower back and in even superior to the back squat when it comes to quads strength and development…

Now about your routine, these exercises are the base on anyone who wants to workout, and only after you’ve reached a certain level of strentgh with these major exercises do you move to more specialized routines and more “isolation” exercises… most beginners do it the other way around, so I think you are going about it the correct way. [/quote]
I know he’s just a beginner and most of this “quad dominant” “hamstring dominant” stuff is broscience but what if he actually is quad dominant and just doing deads would give it a chance to even out? Have to, always, never are rarely good words to use.

Ok Thanks again for all the advice guys, I think I will give this program a try for a few months consisting of:

Day 1: Deadlifts, Barbell Rows

Day 2: OHP, Bench Press

Or Pullups instead of OHP

Anyone have any ideas for some effective set and rep ranges for this program or any other layouts?

Cheers In advance

PS: I want to keep it to 4 compound exercise if I can.

OP if your interseted in this type of training heavy abriviated basic training get a copy of Beyond Brawn by Sturat McRoberts, or spend some time at hargainer web sight Bob Whelan. I don`t push one way of training or another, but as a trainer I like to be informed on all types of training.

Theres lots of people that follow this type of training, and do well with it, especialy naturals. I dont understand people being afraid of what they dont know, its hard not destroying every single fiber of every single muscle group, but this is a different way of training. Goodluck with it, I hope you log your journey, for people to see, and learn

[quote]TheLifterdude wrote:
I think I will give this program a try for a few months consisting of:

Day 1: Deadlifts, Barbell Rows
Day 2: OHP, Bench Press

Or Pullups instead of OHP[/quote]

How many days a week are you planning on lifting?

If you’re planning on resting between the days, then I’d personally set it up as:

Day 1: Bench, Rows
Day 2: Deadlift, OHP

But if you’re doing them back to back without rest days in between, I’m not sure how to do it.

Also, you can do pullups between sets of OHP and/or Bench if you want.

Sets and rep ranges sort of depend on your goals.

  • Is size or strength higher priority right now?
  • How much can you currently lift for each of those? 1RM or 3RM or 5RM or whatever you’ve been using.
  • What kind of sets and reps have you been doing up until now?

As a general rule, 5x5 is a good starting point. To emphasize size over strength, increase the reps, decrease the sets. To emphasize strength over size, increase the sets, decrease the reps. Either way, most arrangements usually keep the total reps somewhere between 24 and 32.

With deadlifts, you might want to do something more like 1-3x5 to start, simply because they can be more demanding and take longer to recover.

Nothing is set in stone though, they’re just general guidelines. Assuming you’re putting more weight on the bar over time, in all the lifts, you will be getting both bigger and stronger. (This also means eating enough calories and protein to grow.)

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
OP if your interseted in this type of training heavy abriviated basic training get a copy of Beyond Brawn by Sturat McRoberts, or spend some time at hargainer web sight Bob Whelan. I don`t push one way of training or another, but as a trainer I like to be informed on all types of training.

Theres lots of people that follow this type of training, and do well with it, especialy naturals. I dont understand people being afraid of what they dont know, its hard not destroying every single fiber of every single muscle group, but this is a different way of training. Goodluck with it, I hope you log your journey, for people to see, and learn[/quote]

x2 on this.

People have been writing about lifting for over a hundred years. A lot of things have been “forgotten” over time, only to be rediscovered and repackaged as the newest innovations in training.

In addition to Jake’s suggestions, there’s also plenty of stuff worth reading on the site called “The Tight Tan Slacks of Dezso Ban”. Lots of articles from the old muscle magazines, many from the “Golden Age” of bodybuilding, and when the US dominated Olympic Lifting. Articles by Bradley Steiner and John McCallum are a good start. I think there’s a few Stuart McRobert ones over there too.

I like LORez`s routine alot. How many times a week do you work out, if your going to hit the deadlift twice I would do one workout heavy 5x5 or such, and the other time one all out set of 20. Trying to work up to being able to pull your body weight for twenty reps, can be an awesome goal that can change your body, and mind.

Your allowd to stand up for a few breaths a couple times throughout the set, but dont move your feet, just keep going till you hit 20. This is similar to 20 rep squatting, and theres programs all over the net about it. I would personaly use the program LoRez mentioned, and do it 3x a week, flipping the workouts so you hit Day 1 twice on one week, and then once the next week.

With this, I would do 20 rep deads only every other week, as the second session on the week you deadlift twice–Hope thats not to confusing. One final note, when Im doing this type of training with clients, Ill give them 10 min at the end of each workout to do what ever they want, they usually do some curls, ext. or latterals.

The point is this keeps things interseting, and fun, they can pump up theyre shoulders, or arms without affecting the workout in a negative way, just dont let the 10 min become any longer :slight_smile: I grew up reding Beyond Brawn, and love this kind of training, if you can`t tell. Check out my log Anytimes Come back to see how my training evolved over 20yrs. I still train minilmist style 3 exercises a workout 3x a week, but with a PLing spin. Latter

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:
On the other hand: if deadlifts are fine and squats bother you, you’re squatting wrong. Seriously.[/quote]
This deserves more attention. The OP is 15 years old. Nothing he’s said so far explains why he’d be physically unable to do a proper squat, other than simple poor technique. It makes much more sense to learn to squat correctly than to avoid it.

[quote]TheLifterdude wrote:
I am constantly struggling to fit workouts in my already busy lifestyle. [/quote]
Again… you’re 15. I find it impossible to believe you can’t find an full hour three or four days a week to train. Even with homework, housework, an extra-curricular or two, and maybe a part-time job.

Did you ever try that bodyweight routine I suggested a few months ago, that you said you’d follow?

Also, you’ve gained so great weight so far but don’t slow down on it at all. Keep eating plenty and you should keep seeing plenty of gains. Are you still doing those long bike rides everyday?

Why is everyone so fixated on the squat, I train kids for a living, and this is pretty common, not wanting to squat at first, not a big deal. You just work around it till they’re ready, no sense scaring them off forcing to do somthing they’re not comfortable with.

Hopefully they are able to do another linch pin exercise Squat, Deadlift, Trap bar as long as they can do one of these, we can get them big and strong. If you spend one whole year focused on the Deadlift, you shouild be able to get it up to 400lbs, or atleast 2x body weight. This will do great things to your build, and confidance, and when your ready to squat you’ll be able to handle some decent weight.

Take a year workout 2-3x a week, focus progressively on getting your deadlift up to 405,(or 2xBW) follow that with a push (dips, or bench) Pull (chins, or row) finish with some curls, and latterals/ facepulls. By not splitting your focus (like everyone else) just progressive resistance on 3 exercises you’ll be way further ahead, imagine- deadlift 405, dips +100x10, chins +50x10

This will give you a build better than 80% of the people on this sight. LESS IS MORE everyone here freaking out because your not going to squat, or have 12 exercises in your routine either don’t have pics of them selves, or they look like marathon runners.

The 3 LINCH PIN exercises are interchangable. I can’t believe this thread is still going, people pick up a copy of BRAWN, abriviated training based around one of the three linch pin exercises, WORKS!- At the end of 3mths, or a year, try squatting again, I’m willing to bet it feels more natural.

Training has to be enjoyable (especialy for kids) if you don’t like squatting, but like deadlifting, go for it. It’s funny how skinny people defend they’re style of training :slight_smile: Get strong on a handfull of exercises, then switch to a different handfull, it’s not complicated, some people could screw up a free BJ. Check out the sights listed, and or my log–Goodluck

The above post is tounge in cheek, nobody get they’re panties in a bunch :wink:

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
Why is everyone so fixated on the squat, I train kids for a living, and this is pretty common, not wanting to squat at first, not a big deal.[/quote]
From my perspective (and you know I’ve trained kids as well), this situation isn’t about a kid not wanting to squat. It’s about a huge red flag when a 6’1", skinny, 15-year old with a few months of experience says, “I’ve tried squatting and it just doesn’t agree with my lower back.”

That reads 100% like a form issue, since squatting is a basic human movement and someone this young should be physically able to do the movement without problem. I’d rather start with unweighted squats to engrain the movement and build some type of base, then progress to something like goblet squats as the “easiest” way to add resistance without effecting form, and then move to the bar for “the real thing.” If that progression takes five months or whatever, it’s time well spent.

I pretty much get what you’re saying, but to a certain extent, we all know that getting results in the weight room almost always calls for doing something that seems scary or uncomfortable, so we should be careful what we allow kids to avoid unless there’s a significant reason not to do something.

It’s uncomfortable to squat deep or bench deep or to push through muscle burn for an extra rep or two, and it’s scary to put a barbell overhead or catch a power clean, but those are exactly the things that will lead to long-term results. So we have to monitor how much we let kids “get away with” avoiding certain movements simply because they seem hard.

Then again, in my Teaching Kids article last week, you’ll see that I did end each upper body day with some bi/tri supersets. I fully understand the importance of exercise bribery (err, “motivation”. Call it what you will). Get through the hard stuff first, and then you can do the fun stuff. :wink:

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:

This will give you a build better than 80% of the people on this sight. LESS IS MORE everyone here freaking out because your not going to squat, or have 12 exercises in your routine either don’t have pics of them selves, or they look like marathon runners.

Training has to be enjoyable (especialy for kids) if you don’t like squatting, but like deadlifting, go for it. It’s funny how skinny people defend they’re style of training :slight_smile: Get strong on a handfull of exercises, then switch to a different handfull, it’s not complicated[/quote]

Squatting is too important an exercise to be ignored, and squatters look nothing like marathon runners… I focused on squats and in 8 months reached 2XBW and 1.5BW for 20 reps, gained very decent size on my quads, I’ve been off of squat for a month now focusing on pure bodyweight training (including basic gymnastic).

he should switch his exercises of course, but that wasn’t the point, he’s experiencing pain during the squat and never wants to squat, so the advice was to learn to squat properly and include it at some point in his workouts and not drop it permanently…

First of all I’m all for intelligent discussions thats how we all learn, Open minds build bigger bodies. Between Chris and I there’s around 50yrs of lifting and training expierance. Ronald your posting question in the beginers form, So in a case like this please, just listen and learn. For me I only post in threads I have direct expierance with (I’m weird that way) and this is exactly what I do, for 20yrs I’ve been training 15-24yr old Hockey players. The squat is the king, no doubt, but it is interchangable with the deadlift or trap bar.

I have a handfull of 16-18yr kids right now with 1000lb+ totals thats our main focus, once they get 1000lbs they can start programing they’re own routines, because with the strength comes knowlage. As in this case, he dosn’t want to squat, but wants to deadlift. I know from 20yrs of this, that as he progresses in the dead, and he gains size, and strength, he’ll also gain knowlage, and along the road of deadlifting, he’ll try the squat again, he’ll apply the strength, willpower, persiverance he’s learned from deadlifting heavy for a few months, to over comming the issues he has with the squat. I’ve seen this a dozens of times over the years.

I wasn’t going to get into my reasons why I was encouraging him to ignor the squat, and move forward with the dead, because I didn’t want an arguement, but in your case Chris, I know you’ll understand what I’m saying, and mabey be able to use it your self. As long as I can get my kids to do one of the three linch pin exercises, and build a program around it, and get them in the gym liftting heavy. The results from one (after a few months) will peak they’re interest in the others. In the mean timne gaining strength in the dead, will make you a better squatter, and vise versa. This thing we do is a journey, gaining sizae, and strength comes over years, and decades, not weeks and months.

So for the first few months if he’s focused only on the deadlift, and a basic program around it. he’s still light years ahead of all the other kids lined up at the cable cross over. When they’re headed in the right direction, I like to encourage it. When your moving heavy weights, and enjoying it, everything else falls into place. Chris, on a side note, after taking all of 2011 off, I stared training for a meet recently, ands started a log, would appreciate your input. Ronald, good work on 2xBW squat, remeber lifting weights ‘‘is a marathon, not a sprint’’. Goodluck

Not to keep blabbering on, but I own a comercial gym, and I watch every day how real kids in the real world train.
Mon, arms
Tues, chest
Wed shoulders
Thurs, Arms
Fri, feeling a bit guilty, so throw some leg press in with some cest, and shoulders

It’s nice on the internet that everyone has perfect routines, and trains on a perfectly balanced program, but in the real world, what the OP is suggesting is light years ahead of the above routine, and headed in the right direction. Everyone on T Nation can squat 500lbs and trains like an Olympic athlete, but this isn’t what I see evrey day in the gym, makes you wonder eh !

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
Why is everyone so fixated on the squat, I train kids for a living, and this is pretty common, not wanting to squat at first, not a big deal. You just work around it till they’re ready, no sense scaring them off forcing to do somthing they’re not comfortable with.

Hopefully they are able to do another linch pin exercise Squat, Deadlift, Trap bar as long as they can do one of these, we can get them big and strong. If you spend one whole year focused on the Deadlift, you shouild be able to get it up to 400lbs, or atleast 2x body weight. This will do great things to your build, and confidance, and when your ready to squat you’ll be able to handle some decent weight.

Take a year workout 2-3x a week, focus progressively on getting your deadlift up to 405,(or 2xBW) follow that with a push (dips, or bench) Pull (chins, or row) finish with some curls, and latterals/ facepulls. By not splitting your focus (like everyone else) just progressive resistance on 3 exercises you’ll be way further ahead, imagine- deadlift 405, dips +100x10, chins +50x10

This will give you a build better than 80% of the people on this sight. LESS IS MORE everyone here freaking out because your not going to squat, or have 12 exercises in your routine either don’t have pics of them selves, or they look like marathon runners.

The 3 LINCH PIN exercises are interchangable. I can’t believe this thread is still going, people pick up a copy of BRAWN, abriviated training based around one of the three linch pin exercises, WORKS!- At the end of 3mths, or a year, try squatting again, I’m willing to bet it feels more natural.

Training has to be enjoyable (especialy for kids) if you don’t like squatting, but like deadlifting, go for it. It’s funny how skinny people defend they’re style of training :slight_smile: Get strong on a handfull of exercises, then switch to a different handfull, it’s not complicated, some people could screw up a free BJ. Check out the sights listed, and or my log–Goodluck[/quote]
I agree with a lot of what Stuart McRobert’s written and what you’ve said in this thread. One thing that I’ve come to realise in lifting (and in life) is that sometimes, less truly is more. When I think of all the years that I spent doing body-part splits with isolation exercises coming out of my ass, it makes me want to cry. Like a lot of Staley’s training regimens, McRoberts really stips things down to the essentials. In my personal experience, I definitely think that 80% of one’s results come from 20% of the lifts done. I’m currently trying to maintain my LBM while stripping off 20 lbs of fat and I’m using a plan very similar to the one you mentioned for your in season hockey players. So far, the results have been great (ie. same strength, down 15 lbs bw).

Also, I’m in total agreement with you re: the squat. I agree it’s an amazing movement that gives you a lot of bang for your buck but, I do think that deadlifts (especially trap bar deads) give a lot of the same benefit. I always find it funny how so many people are ready to crucify others for daring to program a routine that doesn’t include squats. I often will do a few months away from squatting with my main lower body movement being the deadlift and, when I do reintroduce squats back in, my squat numbers are either the same or back to where they were after 1-2 weeks.

[quote]AnytimeJake wrote:
Not to keep blabbering on, but I own a comercial gym, and I watch every day how real kids in the real world train.
Mon, arms
Tues, chest
Wed shoulders
Thurs, Arms
Fri, feeling a bit guilty, so throw some leg press in with some cest, and shoulders

It’s nice on the internet that everyone has perfect routines, and trains on a perfectly balanced program, but in the real world, what the OP is suggesting is light years ahead of the above routine, and headed in the right direction. Everyone on T Nation can squat 500lbs and trains like an Olympic athlete, but this isn’t what I see evrey day in the gym, makes you wonder eh ![/quote]

I respect your experience, keep up the good work with the kids.

but I am not a beginner, actually I’ve been training for many years, and I used to be one of the guys with the bad routine not to mention mostly isolation exercises for the 1st few years when I started, including not squatting, not deadlifting and barely benching… because I didn’t know better, but as I started reading many many many books and quality articles like here I changed everything… I used to leg press only, and actually reached 10 plates on each side (20 damn plates, what kinda real exercise would you reach that kinda weight in, unless its useless)…

I switched to squat and started with 1.5 plates, but my legs were always my strongest point, I moved up pretty fast, reached 1.5BW x 12+ reps, then stopped most all other exercises and only squatted, I started smolov base mesocycle, and squatted exactly 1.88BW x 6 Reps, and attempted 2xBW but could only do 1 rep… by that time I was tired and playing soccer as a hobby for 2 hours once a week contributed to me taking a break and now I know I have reached an ok level with legs, I wanna focus on other body parts… (as my Bench Press is pathetic at best, 1.2 BW 1 rep max :S )

I honestly believe Bodyweight exercises are what everyone should base his strength foundation on, I wish someone had told me many many years ago, I could’ve saved a lot of time wasted on bicep curls, cable pull downs and leg press for high reps, and not basing my workout on strength gain. Needless to say I spent many many years going up and down to the same level of musculature (which was far from impressive) and not being able to progress, since I really had no idea what I was doing.

I am actually starting basic gymnastic exercises, as when I switched to ring flyes, ring pushups, ring inverted rows, and especially STERNUM PULL UPS and Handstand pushups without the use of any free weights, I have gained muscle and strength faster than I did IN YEARS! could be just adaptation to new stimulus but I honestly believe bodyweight exercises and not free weights are the base for strength… (by bodyweight I mean closed kinetic chain, like sternum pull ups, squat, deadlifts, and handstand pushups).

I am actually starting to work towards achieving the planche and front lever, which will take at least 6 months.

Good stuff Ronald, sorry we got off on the wrong foot, I know I come off angry somtimes, this is far from the truth, just pasionate about basic weight training, turned it into my living ! Body weight stuff is good, I’ve done alot of time in my younger days, and over the years. Dips, Chins, and squats with someone on your back forms the basis of your trainig in jail. My favorite Tri move is still standing BW french press, where you bend over, put your hands on a rail, and dip your head down under your hands, use your tri’s to straighten back up. Tri’s are my best body part, and when I tell people this is all I do, they never believe me, Theyre loss. Anyway way off topic here, PRs to all !

Thanks again for guys for the prompt replies.

Also I would like to give a big thanks to Chris Colucci who pointed me in the right direction with bodyweight exercises a few months back. I was working on those for around 7 weeks until I moved on to basic program I stated earlier in the thread. I have also followed yours and other peoples advice on eating healthy and eating big and have gained around 8-10 pounds since. I am also continuing my bike rides for a bit of cardio as well as playing rep basketball 3 times a week.

I think I will also take your advice Chris and continue to persist with the squat. I might start with just the bar and maybe 40 pounds on it and shoot for high reps to work on the rhythm and get my form right. Would it be suitable to rotate deadlifts with squats each week do both in the same week on different days.

Also I don’t think I was very clear about my current lifting goals. Although I would like to increase muscle mass my MAIN focus is on gaining as much strength as possible. By the sound of it a 5x5 rep and set range sounds perfect for what I am after.

If I changed my bench press to an incline press would that be enough work at the moment for front delt development or should I try and include some OHP?

Incase anyone is curious my current deadlift is sitting at 150 pound for 7 reps
Barbell Row is 90 pounds for 8 reps
Bodyweight Pullups 13 reps
Bench Press 140 for 2 reps
And when I was trying the squat I did 100 pounds for 12 reps

I know these aren’t extreme numbers at all but for my age, size and weight I think I am at reasonable level of strength.

Let me know on any feedback anyone has because it is all much appreciated!

Cheers