All the compling about “under God” is silly. Since, “God” is not defined in the pledge.
Christains can believed God is Jesus and think.
“One nation under Christ”
Atheists can believe God is nothing/none and think. “one nation under none”
Godcomplexes can think God is himself/herself and think, “one nation under me”
The phrase “under god” doesn’t force a belief on anyone, only the defining of God would force a belief.
Hmmmmm…would all you Americans please get out from under my bed, I’m trying to sleep!!
I don’t really care that they assaulted the pledge except for the fact that it indicates a further intrusion of my liberties. Why is the government spending so much money on something so irrelevent except for the fact that some people are really emotionally attached to it. I also want to know why somebody has to take it to court…Don’t like the pledge, don’t say it…Sounds simple, but some people have to go after that 15 minutes, I guess.
The pledge itself I could give a crap about. To me it sounds like a prayer to the country. I don't feel the need to pray to a country, but I will participate in the pledge if it is being said. I just think praying to a country is as useless as asking a brick wall for a blow job.
Mike,
Yes, I think it’s bunk, that the pledge of alegance was ruled unconstitutional. Shit, the dollar bill is unconstitutional too. Is that next?
But you need to relax there tough guy. Outbursts like that hurt your(our) arguement more than they help. Name calling is childish. Calling people bleeding heart liberals isn’t a good way to get them to listen to you. Like it or not, there are enough democrats out there to put a significant number of their candidates in office, in fact some terms a majority. This isn’t the conservative’s country. This isn’t the liberal’s country. This isn’t your country. This isn’t my country. This is OUR country, and that means we have to make some compromises sometimes. Get over it. Leave “Under God” in it when YOU say it. If you have children, teach them to say it how you learned it. But forcing your opinion on others is no better than them forcing it on you.
instead of focusing on the war, on the more important things on america’s plate right now, we have IDIOTIC judges and MORONIC people altering our pledge at a time we should be completely united. this country will never cease to amaze me. never.
As a Brit, we all sing “God save the Queen”.
Not all Brits believe in god, in fact a lot of us are non christian (Hindu, Islamic, Buddist etc), but we still all sing GOD save the queen with great fevour, because its our anthem. For you Americans, surely its the pledge itself, the pledge to your country thats the important point. Whether you believe in god or not is irrelevent, its loyalty to your country thats important.
First, a lot of you need to read the court ruling itself. It has NOTHING to do with the minority ruling the majority. It has everything to do with whether the 1954 Congressional act which added “under God” to the OFFICIAL version of the pledge was constitutional. It was determined that it wasn’t. It is STILL OK to recite the pre-1954 version…so the pledge hasn’t been banned. Second, those of you who claim that this is a democratic society are wrong. We live in a republic, not a democracy. In a true democracy, if 51% of the people voted to kick the other 49% out of the country, it would happen. The majority is always oppressive towards the minority. That’s why the constitution exists…to protect the individual liberties of the minority from being voted away by the majority. For those of you who think majority should always rule, would you have a problem if we changed the pledge to read “One nation under Caucasians?” If so, then why? Also, Jake, the fact that “separation of church and state” is not in the Constitution is irrelevant. “Bill of Rights” and “right to a fair trial” are not in there either, but the Constitution supports these principles. When Presidents take an oath, the official oath mentioned in the Constitution makes no reference to any deity…the “so help me God” is optional. Thus, the OFFICIAL version of the Pledge shouldn’t contain “under God” either. The 1954 act by Congress was in violation of the establishment clause.
****** However, if anyone is UNWILLING to pledge their allegiance to the United States, they should not, in my opinion, benefit from living here and can get the fuck out.************ So basically, AR, you’re saying that anyone who doesn’t want to say the pledge should be kicked out of the country?Evidently, you are not interested in individual freedom…only the freedom of those that you agree with.
Mike, have you ever considered you are posting to the wrong forum? This is a forum for people who put physical achievement above almost all else. Dare I say people who let vanity rule their lives? Your question would find a more favorable audience in a findamentalist Christian forum. Now don’t get me wrong as to whose side I am on. I are one of those fundamentalist Christians. In fact, I’m one of those Bible believing Southern Baptists that everybody talks about with scorn these days. Heck, I’ll even go on the record to admit I’m white, have 2.5 children, a dog and a cat. As far as the pledge goes, I’ll say it the way I want to no matter what anyone else does, and I’ll mean every word. To the rest of the forum, as far as I can tell only one person has alluded to the reason so many true Christians (and I say THAT to imply there are many who claim that title but do not know Jesus) are upset that “under God” may be taken out-BTW, it’s not a done deal. Taking “under God” out of the pledge is just another example of taking God out of our children’s live’s at school. It is being done systematically one step at a time not in the name of “freedom of religion” but in the name of “freedom FROM religion”. I’m not arguing that public schools should teach any religion. They would just screw it up anyway. I’m just pointing out that by removing the freedom or oppurtunity to worship God the way we see fit is just another freedom being taken away from us all. At the rate we’re going, all of our freedom will be gone, because once we give it away, we will never get it back.
Gregbrock, you’ve been a victim of Christian propaganda. The ability for Christians to worship as they see fit has NOT been taken out of schools. For example, since teacher-led prayer is not allowed, suddenly Christians think prayer is not allowed in schools. This is completely false. Here is exactly what the law says regarding school prayer. 1. Students have the right to pray individually or in groups or to discuss their religious views with their peers so long as they are not disruptive. Because the Establishment Clause does not apply to purely private speech, students enjoy the right to read their Bibles or other scriptures, say grace before meals, pray before tests, and discuss religion with other willing student listeners. In the classroom students have the right to pray quietly except when required to be actively engaged in school activities (e.g., students may not decide to pray just as a teacher calls on them). In informal settings, such as the cafeteria or in the halls, students may pray either audibly or silently, subject to the same rules of order as apply to other speech in these locations. However, the right to engage in voluntary prayer does not include, for example, the right to have a captive audience listen or to compel other students to participate. So, Gregbrock, your freedom to worship has not been taken away.
What about those who do not believe in God? Or how about people of different religions that are not supposed to use the word “God?” And what does people dying for our nation have to do with God? You realize that most wars are political and have nothing to do with God. And since most people live in the U.S. to be free, it’s interesting that we are forcing people to conform to certain standards in life. I could care less if “under God” is in the pledge. But for those that don’t practice the same religions or feel comfortable saying it, they shouldn’t have to or feel obligated to, or be pursecuted for not doing so.
I pledge allegiance to no nation, least of all a nation subservient to an imaginary sky pixie named God.
The collectivism that pervades this newsgroup is disgusting. There is no united, indivisible ‘we’–just ‘me’. I am part of no herd, I will follow no one, I will unite for no common purpose. I shall set my own goals and pursue them in the way that I see best. This attitude is the essence of individualism, the cornerstone of any rational freethinker’s philosophy of living.
You got it asshole. And if you don’t like it, tough shit. Leave, and take that Fibertarian goofball with you.
Well, AR, it looks like you aren’t interested in the rights of individual American citizens or freedom of speech, which means you don’t believe in the Constitution. Not only that, it sounds like you believe in forced patriotism. Careful, AR, when you advocate that the individual rights of American citizens be taken away. You never know when some of those rights just might be your own.
Show some respect. Captain Roids did his part for America, indeed for YOU, at a time when it wasn’t exactly a glorious thing to be a soldier. Also, he has a very good point.
You can bitch about current administrations, government indiscretions, and whatever else you want. That's part of your JOB as a citizen. But when you refuse to pledge show respect to your flag and your country, it's high time you find another one that you WILL pledge allegiance to. Once you get there, don't complain about how bad it is.
It never ceases to amuse me. The biggest whiners are always the ones who don't know how good they have it.
Sorry, that sentence should have read: “But when you refuse to pledge allegiance to, and show respect for your flag and country…”
Serves me right for not using a word processor.
You said: ‘“Bill of Rights” and “right to a fair trial” are not in [the Constitution] either, but the Constitution supports these principles.’
The Bill of Rights is comprised of the first ten amendments to the Constitution. It was ratified almost immediately after the Constitution, so it is definitely “in there”, and has been since 1791.
You should check the Constitution out – you will see several items pertaining to the right to a fair trial. For instance, Amendment VI --“In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.” That’s a pretty good start at giving a definition of “fair trial”, and this has also been a part of the Constitition for 211 years.
Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse to say the pledge of allegiance because they only believe in pledging allegiance to God. Are you saying they should be kicked out of the country? Sure, someone refusing to pledge allegiance to this country is offensive to people like Avoids who have done a lot to defend this country. However, that is not justification for kicking people like that out of the country. Yeah, it sucks there are people who don’t appreciate what they’ve got here. Well, too bad, people. Deal with it. If you want freedom of speech, then it’s something you’ll have to put up with. If you want freedom of speech, you’ll have to deal with people saying things you find offensive. Forced patriotism is anything but freedom. It’s like Neo-Nazi groups. As much as I despise hate groups such as this, they have every right to voice their opinions in this country…and as much as I despise what they stand for, I will stand up for their rights to have a voice.
Redman, you missed the point. I never claimed there is no Bill of Rights in the Constitution, nor did I claim that the concept of a fair trial is not in there. However, the PHRASE “Bill of Rights” is not there. And the PHRASES “Separation of Church and State” and “Freedom of religion” are not in there either, but these concepts are clearly supported by the existence of the establishment and elastic clauses in the 1st amendment.
Ever have an ant farm as a kid? I think we are like an ant farm and God is a big anteater. Those of us that die go to the big anteater in the the sky to join him for dinner. That’s why I’ll never take “under the great anteater” out of the Pledge of Allegiance.