T Nation

One Nation, Under God

Some of what I said I pasted from an article alledgedly from a By John W. Baer, whitch he got from other references, and so on and so on

does anyone care?

I think it was the reform of labor laws and the industrial revolution that got kids
out of the coal mines". While I am not as impressed with the results from PE as you seem to be, clearly we agree on a lot. It is more a from of indoctrination than anything else at this point. As for your experience with the pledge, that of my children was different. This is just anecdotal evidence. Here is some more, supporting your “indoctrination” point, and indicating how individual our experiences are: Last school year, my 17 yr old complpained that all his english teacher gave them for assignments were lessons involving vegetarianism. I checked, and all three of his latest assinments were vegetarian related, including an essay on the danger of meat, and one involving the crual slaughter of the buffalo by the bad white people. He also said that she brought it up at least once per class, and that some of the girls in class were already switching to a meat free diet. I spoke to school principal, described the lessons, and complained that he was there to learn the language, not her political and dietary beliefs. He brought the hammer down, and we heard no more about it. Scary. I wonder how many teenage girls have hurt themselves on her diet over the years. Done with this topic.

I agree with you that it’s only indoctrination now. I’m thankful that I only spent three years in public schools, but I remember that our American History classes were all about civil rights and womens’ rights history. They didn’t teach us even the basics about the presidents, the governments, the laws, the Constitution, etc.

I care you fucking asshole, fuck you for taking other peoples work!

Just kidding Coyote, I don’t give a shit and frankly neither does anyone else. I had ya for a second there though :wink:

I consider it a privilage to be under GOD!! I don’t want to be under anyone elses care. It is an incredible insult to the many men and women who fought for our country and gave their blood for us to not declare we are a nation under GOD. Do you honestly believe we are not under GOD?? This country comes to the aid of more countries than anybody else in history. It gets shunne when it could use help but there we are helping needy countries all the time. Isn’t this what GOD would do??? Where were all the Middle East countries after 9-11. They sure as hell didn’t send troops to help secure our borders or send troops to help our fighting men in Afghan, other than the Pakistans. Also Saudia Arabia can shove it up their ass!!! Our allies, bullshit. Take your liberal garbage and go whine with Tom Daschale.

!ATTENTION!ATTENTION! THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE!
All you anti-Under God people. Send you dirty IN GOD WE TRUST money to me care of T-mag TODAY.

Separation of church and state has been lip service since for a long time. The government shuts down on Christian holidays, and has for along time. Granted, if they shut down for every religious holiday to be ‘equal’ they would never get any work done, but how about NOT shutting down on a religious holiday? People would scream bloody murder then.

The men and women who fought for this country in the past and in the present fought for THIS COUNTRY not for God. I'm pretty sure they don't kick Buddists out of the Army!!

God does not belong on our money, in our pledge, or on our government's vacation calendars. If you want a government ruled by religion I suggest you move to the Middle East.

My $3.50 left over after ordering a couple dozen jugs of Grow!, is on it’s way to you.

Separation of church and state is not in the Constitution. I would argue that adherence to the Constitution has been lip service for a long time. May I ask why you’re so hostile to religion?

Add it to the list; and watch our country’s morals continue to decline, as they have been since the early 20th century.

I would argue that the idea that our morals are somehow in decline is fallacious. While it may be popular to get starry eyed as we look back at the way thing used to be, let us not forget that state sanctioned segregation, as well as the brutal subjugation of women, were accepted in our recent past. I just think that we should be more careful with those rose tinted glasses.

I still find it humorous that this caused such an uproar. The words "under God" were ADDED to the Pledge in the 50's, and now people are getting chapped asses over its removal? We have to have better thing to do with our time...say, oh I don't know, CATCHING TERRORISTS MAYBE?!? Sheesh.

The Separation of Church and State saying is NO WHERE in the Constitution. It was mentioned in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson, I believe. The exact phrase, from the First Amendment, is “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”. Jefferson’s words were “I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.” Go here for an explanation http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html.

So all you people saying "this ruling IS Constitutionally sound" are plain and simple people with their heads up their asses. Read it, understand it, and pull your head out of your ass. This ruling is simply ludicrous.

This country was settled by religous people, created by religous people, defended by religious people everday, and for religious people. What your religion is does not matter. God is a term that refers to any number of supreme beings, Judeo-Christian or otherwise. You are free to exercise your own religous beliefs, that is granted in the First Amendment. And when 99% of the population in a country is religious in nature, the Pledge should remain that way to reflect those beliefs. Lately we, as a country, have taken the stance of protecting every little minority from the majority. In some cases that is sound (civil rights, etc.). In cases like this, and in just about every case supported by the ACLU, it violates the principles of a democratic society, a government that represents the MAJORITY, not the minority. There are any number of issues I could go off on (policies regarding immigration, etc.), but this one takes the cake right now. It is simply unbelievable. This Newdow guy is an asshole, plain and simple. Out to make a name for himself. And he's done it, but not in the way he probably wants, since 90% of America hates him with a passion.

LAUGH Hostile to religion? Me? That’s pretty funny. What I AM hostile to is the notion that the ‘right’ religion in this country is Christianity.

Separation of Church and State in this country dates back to the King of England haveing the power to rule given to him by God. The Founding Fathers rejected this idea and therefore did not select a state religion. (well, not officially anyway, it is quite obvious that the 'sactioned' religion in this country is Christianity)

Being Christian myself, I find it appalling when anyone wants to form laws based on their personal belief system. Fundamentalists, who know nothing more than 'because the curch said so,' try to change laws based in their narrow, unthinking, blind adherence to beliefs that they have never researched for themselves.

Some of your arguments are just so ridiculous. Geez….If you don’t believe in god (which is your perogative) then how can you pledge your allegiance to a nation under god? Naked man …going to the aid of other countries doesn’t mean we are under god…it may mean that we are good people, or compassionate but doesn’t have anything to do with god. Couldn’t you love and fight for your country whether it was “under god” or not? Does not believing in god make you a bad person? If you think it does you have serious other problem besides the wording of the pledge.

For once, I agree with Lion (minus perhaps a bit of the venom). :slight_smile: Take the “under God” part out and everything is fine. I, for one, am fine with the “under God” part as I believe in God and am not offended by it, but if we’re going to claim that there’s a separation of church and state in this country, then advocating theism as opposed to atheism does indeed contradict that. 'Nuff said.

(Wow, I just spelled my own name wrong in the previous post. Oops).

Are we done here?

Actually, at the time the United States Constitution was written, religion was defined as a Chri

Why don’t we take a look at some of the state Constitutions. From Georgia: The Preamble, “To perpetuate the principles of free government, insure justice to all, preserve peace, promote the interest and happiness of the citizen and of the family, and transmit to posterity the enjoyment of liberty, we the people of Georgia, relying upon the protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution.” From Article I, Section I: “Paragrah III. Freedom of conscience. Each person has the natural and inalienable right to worship God, each according to the dictate’s of that person’s own conscience; and no human authority should, in any case, control or interfere with such right of conscience. Paragraph IV. Religious opinions; freedom of religion. No inhabitant of this state shall be molested in person or property or be prohibited from holding any public office or trust on account of religious opinions; but the right of freedom of religion shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness or justify practices inconsistent with the peace and safety of the state.” From Maryland: From the Declaration of Rights, Article 36: "That as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty; wherefore, no person ought by any law to be molested in his person or estate, on account of his religious persuasion, or profession, or for his religious practice, unless, under the color of religion, he shall disturb the good order, peace or safety of the State, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others in their natural, civil or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent, or maintain, or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain, any place of worship, or any ministry; nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness, or juror, on account of his religious belief; provided, he believes in the existence of God, and that under His dispensation such person will be held morally accountable for his acts, and be rewarded or punished therefor either in this world or in the world to come.

Nothing shall prohibit or require the making reference to belief in, reliance upon, or invoking the aid of God or a Supreme Being in any governmental or public document, proceeding, activity, ceremony, school, institution, or place.

Nothing in this article shall constitute an establishment of religion (amended by Chapter 558, Acts of 1970, ratified Nov. 3, 1970)."

From Virginia, from Article 1 Section 16: “That religion or the duty which we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be directed only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence; and, therefore, all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other. No man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall maintain their opinions in matters of religion, and the same shall in nowise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.”

Just a few examples. Freedom of religion in the United States was historically limited to Christian religions. I don’t see why you find it appalling that people want to form laws based on their personal beliefs. How do you think the laws of this country came about? Do you think that the US and various state Constitutions were written by people who opposed their content?

Maybe it wasn’t worded right but my jest was that America seems to do the right thing by Gods standards when it comes to helping out someone and not many reciprocate. Would I fight for this country even if it were not under God. Damn right I would to the bloody end. I served in the Air Force. I would even blow up a fucking terrorist for Michelle. I am not a religious zealot, but just a simple man who loves God and his country. I still think this country is under God though. I respect your opinions, you should respect mine. I looked at myself in the mirror today and had no major problems, minor ones but not major.