T Nation

Once We Had Pride- Where Is It Now?

Big business is selling out the american people…Jobs are being shipped overseas…its hard to find anything made here. If terrorists had brains they could move to China and open up a company and make a deal producing something we use everyday…look at the toothpaste incidents.

Big business doesn’t care as long as profits are up…Lets bring our manufactureing home. BUY AMERICAN(meaning made in the USA) It will probably be the hardest thing to do seeing how everything is made in China.

Get rid of the unions, and government infringement, and maybe some manufacturing jobs will come back to the US.

Until then - I won’t fault the american business owner for trying to lower his bottom line, and escape the oppression that is OSHA, EEOC, and all of the other PC bullshit that the Fed has saddled him with.

Get rid of NAFTA!

Why do we want to pollute our air and water with manufacturing?

Manufacturing jobs are dirty, difficult and dull.

Who wants to work in a steel mill?

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Get rid of the unions, and government infringement, and maybe some manufacturing jobs will come back to the US.

Until then - I won’t fault the american business owner for trying to lower his bottom line, and escape the oppression that is OSHA, EEOC, and all of the other PC bullshit that the Fed has saddled him with. [/quote]

Exactly. We provide these kinds of disincentives to the business owner - small or large - and then have the audacity to expect them to stick around?

RJ, I am sure you see one more example in your daily life all the time - the costs of compliance with the Byzantine tax code visited on the small business owner and the farmer.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Get rid of the unions, and government infringement, and maybe some manufacturing jobs will come back to the US.

Until then - I won’t fault the american business owner for trying to lower his bottom line, and escape the oppression that is OSHA, EEOC, and all of the other PC bullshit that the Fed has saddled him with.

Exactly. We provide these kinds of disincentives to the business owner - small or large - and then have the audacity to expect them to stick around?

RJ, I am sure you see one more example in your daily life all the time - the costs of compliance with the Byzantine tax code visited on the small business owner and the farmer.

[/quote]

Byzantine tax code?

60% of all tax literature worldwide is published in German.

I spend more time trying to help my self-employed clients avoid the self-employment tax than I do anything else.

It is not so bad for the masses. They only have to pay half of the self-employment tax - their boss picks up the other half.

But for farmers and self-employed, it is 15.3% right off the top. So - even if a farmer is in the 15% bracket - he is paying 30% of his profit to the government.

It is punitive, and it is sickening.

I’m reading ‘Fast Food Nation’ and BIG business in that field is full of assholes. Did you know that Ray Kroc paid Nixon $250,000 so he could pay teenagers below minimum? Walt Disney hired thugs to attack strikers and brought in mob guys to intimidate his workers (why Walt’s in the book is a long story). Regs and inspections at the slaughterhouses are a joke, the chance of an inspection being one every 80 years. Even then they have to call ahead under a law passed by Reagan.

As long as we have a mixed economy, capitalists eventually all have to become assholes and politicians become whores. If George Washington were alive today, these bastards would skin him alive.

I am not going to expound on the crookedness of big business and upper management in general. I have the satisfaction of know that a former CEO of mine is in Federal-pound-me-in-the-ass prison for fraud. I am talking about the pride part. Really who gives a shit if we build the most, have the most or do the most? That’s not what makes this country great.

WE (those of us who live and work here) are what make it great. We’re the damn nicest, kindest, most generous sons of bitches on the planet. We have a lot and we give a lot. That’s what makes us great, it sure as fuck ain’t Ford motor company or Enron.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Get rid of the unions, and government infringement, and maybe some manufacturing jobs will come back to the US.

[/quote]

I would not bet on that. Even workers in some Third World manufacturing sectors are losing their jobs to even lower paid workers in other Third World countries. Cat’s out of the bag.

Im as patriotic as they come but half of everything made in this country is crap…look at Ford.lol.Don’t throw anything all you ford fans.I actually own an Expedition and an Excursion (But I dream of Chevys). If somebody can make it better and cheaper than so be it.

If America wants manufacturing to happen in the US thats competitive with other markets illegals will have to flood the country exponentially to provide that labor. Most Americans are to proud to provide that labor at such a low cost. I think most will agree that its already happening. Its a double edged sword.

When I worked for Halliburton I was working along side of people that made 600USD per month which was a gold mine to them I was making 15 times what they were making literally. As a result Halliburton is phasing out as many American jobs in Iraq as possible and leaving them to just be in charge while the Third Country Nationals take up the labor at a fraction of the cost. Its unfortunate but a no brainer.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I spend more time trying to help my self-employed clients avoid the self-employment tax than I do anything else.

It is not so bad for the masses. They only have to pay half of the self-employment tax - their boss picks up the other half.

But for farmers and self-employed, it is 15.3% right off the top. So - even if a farmer is in the 15% bracket - he is paying 30% of his profit to the government.

It is punitive, and it is sickening. [/quote]

Well, they could look at it philosophically. Just like the masses, self employed people also pay only half the tax… and their employers pay the other half.

Seriously, though, that is punitive, and sickening. We were fiscally better off under King George III.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
rainjack wrote:

Well, they could look at it philosophically. Just like the masses, self employed people also pay only half the tax… and their employers pay the other half.
[/quote]

Their situation is the same.

Employed people get only payed what they are able to produce, so the employers part comes out of their pocket too.

There is no such thing as an employers share to anything when it comes to taxes or social security, frankly, it is a propaganda lie.

[quote]rainjack wrote:

But for farmers and self-employed, it is 15.3% right off the top. So - even if a farmer is in the 15% bracket - he is paying 30% of his profit to the government.

[/quote]

Question for you, RJ.

How difficult would it be for these farmers and self-employed people to just incorporate, reinvest their profits and draw a paltry salary while driving the “company car”, living in “company housing”, eating most of their meals during deductible “business meetings” and declaring most of their other expenditures as “business expenses?”

Surely there is a way to do this without breaking any laws?

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
rainjack wrote:

But for farmers and self-employed, it is 15.3% right off the top. So - even if a farmer is in the 15% bracket - he is paying 30% of his profit to the government.

Question for you, RJ.

How difficult would it be for these farmers and self-employed people to just incorporate, reinvest their profits and draw a paltry salary while driving the “company car”, living in “company housing”, eating most of their meals during deductible “business meetings” and declaring most of their other expenditures as “business expenses?”

Surely there is a way to do this without breaking any laws?[/quote]

For farmers that live on the farm - deducting living expenses is not a difficult thing to do. The only problem is that if they hire an employee to help out - that employee is entitled to the same rights and considerations as the owner/employee.

You would wind up paying out more in food, cars and living expenses than you would be saving in taxes - especially if you hire a farm hand with a couple of kids. Single males are cheaper, but they are temporary help at best.

If the farmer lives in town - that same treatment would not withstand an audit.

I recommend incorporation to just about all of my farmer/business owner clients. But the great State of Texas has found a way to capitalize on incorporation, and they tax net income at about 4.5%. This is cheaper than the SE tax, but it will get worse.

And anytime you make a move to avoid, or reduce your tax burden - said move becomes a red flag for an audit. I have clients that, while they will bitch all day long about their tax bill, will do just about anything to avoid an audit.

So it’s really a balancing act to try and combine the lesser of 3-4 evils to come up with a situation that is less punitive than any one of the choices alone.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
The only problem is that if they hire an employee to help out - that employee is entitled to the same rights and considerations as the owner/employee. [/quote]

Meh.

One word: Illegals.

It’s not as prevalent around here as an uneducated pro-terrorist might think.

Illegal immigrant labor is very, very closely watched in this area. Besides - with the tech advances that have been made in farming - a farm hand is increasingly a skilled position.

Maybe not so much with labor intensive crops - but with cotton, wheat, and corn - there is little manual labor performed anymore.