T Nation

Once and For All: Clomid or Tamoxifen?


#1

So.......?

As use as a SERM - which is best? (i always thought Tamoxifen) OR are they about the same.. no noticeable difference.. OR is it Clomiphene?

As PCT Teste Stimulation; Clomid has been prescribed to young boys late starting puberty so... i would say Clomid, but isnt Tamox supposed to work in an identical way? Are they the same, or is one better than the other?

The reason i ask is-

I find i get little from Tamoxifen, i get an OK libido boost from it, but it kinda disappears after use.
I do like to have it on hand as a SERM during a course and just after. Seeing as i fuck around with my endogenous hormones it is a good idea to have certain drugs on hand IMO.

I was wondering whether to go with Clomid this time - i can use it as an Anti-E but if it has better PCT properties, then i will choose it over tamox which leaves me wanting. If it doesnt provide a better HPTA boost, or they are about the same in effect, i will stick with what i know. Tamoxifen.

Hell, if Clomid is as good as a SERM i may as well try it out anyway, i'll use a TTaper anyways! But i would like a discussion on this all the same!

So for once and all.. settle the war of the giant killer "serm's"!

JJ


#2

I know it can cause irreversable eye damage.


#3

Clomid that is.


#4

so can masturbation... is that all you got for me Judge? After al the help i give you over the years?

Is that it?

Consider this girl outta here.....

:wink:


#5

I prob prefer clomiphene for recovery purposes and I expect I'm in the minority on that. Though I should add that I've only used it towards the end of a test taper PCT and never exceeded 50mg dosing, and of course I prefer tamoxifen for addressing any gyno symptoms.


#6

I vote for Clomid as well. It's not only a great way to get "the boys" going again post cycle, but my "loads" are bigger while I'm using it.


#7

I prefer Clomid for PCT purposes, though I don't use SERMs for any other reason. I now use the Test Taper with Clomid during the last four weeks of the taper portion.

This may help, it is an answer from Dr. Scally about his PCT protocol, originally posted on MesoRX:

Why Use Both Clomid and Nolvadex Together?

Q: I have read that Clomid and Novadex are very similar products. Is this true? If so why would you need to take both?

A: The administration of antiestrogens is a common treatment because anti estrogens interfere with the normal negative feedback of sex steroids at hypothalamic and pituitary levels in order to increase endogenous gonadotropin-releasing hormone secretion from the hypothalamus and FSH and LH secretion directly from the pituitary. In turn, FSH and LH stimulate Leydig cells in the testes, and this has been claimed to lead to increased local testosterone production, thereby boosting spermatogenesis with a possible improvement in fertility. There may also be a direct effect of antiestrogens on testicular spermatogenesis or steroidogenesis.

Clomiphene is a synthetic derivative an estrogen. Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Tamoxifen is a pure estradiol receptor antagonist. Clomid acts as an estrogen, rather than an antiestrogen, by sensitizing pituitary cells to the action of GnRH. Although tamoxifen is almost as effective as Clomid in binding to pituitary estrogen receptors, tamoxifen has little or no estrogenic activity in terms of its ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. The estrogenic action of Clomid at the pituitary represents a unique feature of this compound and that tamoxifen may be devoid of estrogenic activity at the pituitary level.

Perusal of the literature thus indicates that clomiphene acts in several ways in the human male; (a) due to its similarity of structure to stilbesterol it binds with receptor sites in the hypothalamus and pituitary, (b) It stimulates gonadotrophin secretion by acting on the hypothalamo-hypophyseal system, (c) the inhibitory effects of high levels of circulating estrogens (produced under the influence of clomiphene) on hypothalamo-hypophyseal axis are possibly prevented by its potent antiestrogenic behaviour. The result of these varied effects of clomiphene is an overall increase in gonadotrophin and estrogen secretion and accounts for their increase under clinical conditions.

In one study the administration of tamoxifen, 20 mg/day for 10 days, to normal males produced a moderate increase in luteinizing hormone (LH), follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), testosterone, and estradiol levels, comparable to the effect of 150 mg of clomiphene citrate (Clomid). Treatment of patients with "idiopathic" oligospermia for 6 to 9 months resulted in a significant increase in gonadotropin, testosterone, and estradiol levels.

Cochran database summary showed ten studies involving 738 men were included. Five of the trials did not specify method of randomization. Antiestrogens had a positive effect on endocrinal outcomes, such as serum testosterone levels. Antiestrogens appear to have a beneficial effect on endocrinal outcomes, but there is not enough evidence to evaluate the use of antiestrogens for increasing the fertility of males with idiopathic oligo-asthenospermia.

In the over one-thousand patients I have treated for HPTA normalization after AAS cessation i have used the combination of clomiphene citrate and tamoxifen. I have used clomiphene citrate alone in many cases. I added tamoxifen to the protocol to see if I could get a better clinical response. This seemed to be the case although I have not had the opportunity to evaluate the data. When both compounds are used the clomiphene citrate is discontinued first and the tamoxifen is continued for 2 more weeks. as I stated in the post on hCG injections it is imperative to be tested while on the medications. thus one would be tested ~3-5 days before the tamoxifen expires. In the 1st stage described in the hCG post one tests for testosterone only. the serum T level determines whether or not the hCG is halted. In the typical situation the hCG is stopped and the CC & tamoxifen continued. the lab tests at the end of the oral meds is LH & T.


#8

LMAO! ho shit!


#9

i got the most god awful acne after my first cycle from clomid. i will never take it again


#10

Plus there are the emotional issues associated with Clomid. They can be hell, trust me.


#11

lol@request!

All casual like it will trick us by making us feel all "homely" with him, like, "hey, dood.. its you! the guy who has 2 posts! YOU'RE BACK! Here is my most reliable source and let me get the first cycle for you!"

I dont think so Jack.

Thankyou everyone.. looks like a fucking draw! It seems that the effects from clomid as PCT are better, but some of the sides are unwanted in some people. I gonna have to try this one myself - as i would have anyway, i just wanted to increase some of my subjective notes. Thankyou.

Very informative post as usual W.H.B

JJ


#12

So I am not the only one who gets a bit a bit teary eyed watching Maury? :slight_smile:

Only ever used tamoxifen myself JJ so can't help sorry


#13

(sobs)

Oh wait... I've never used Clomid... ah shit.

I'M STILL MANLY!!!

(waves penis)


#14

Tamoxifen gets my vote. I notice increased semen volume on tamoxifen as well


#15

Noticed the elavated semen volume from clomid.

Just wanted to add that I think both (if funds allow) could be used effectively together for the last portion of the taper.
They are very sinergeistic in terms of having an affinity for binding at different sites (Tamox prefers breast tissue).


#16

It seems that they realy have no discerning qualities one way or the other..!


#17

Thats what I've gotten from most of my research. Only big difference is the amount needed to produce desired response.


#18

MMmm.. but with the RC places, it isnt really an issue either.

I do think clomid has a edge on HPTA function and Tam on antagonistic properties.. but i will try clomid next time, and make my own choice - but to whoever mentioned both, if i had more monet that sense i would definitely, as they DO have synergy.. BUT for the general working meahead, it isnt necessary to use both, not with the access to adex and letro these days at least..

Thats another - letro CAN be used as PCT.. you just must not go above 0.25mg a day, and 100mcg would usually be sufficient, so that is 25 doses per tablet/ml..!

JJ


#19

what about diffrent ones acting as an estrogen in some tissues


#20

Toremifene.

I hate clomid.