On the Third Day

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]SHREDTODEATH wrote:
I never post here in pwi but what the hell. Ive noticed some here are VERY troubled by other peoples belief systems. I for one do believe in god, now i also believe in evolution and im pro-choice. I dont care if people choose to worship satan and drink blood (as long as blood is given willingly). Why should i care what others believe? Do i think some beliefs are crazy or stupid? yes but I have to ask HH why are you so troubled by christianity? I think maybe you were assaulted sexually or otherwise by a person of faith? No? did one of those televangilist take your money? fuck your wife? Im sorry for the wrong they did to you sincerely. Now can we let people worship whatever god, deity, spirit, space alien or golden statue they like without going out of our way to stir shit among them? Give it a shot devote some of your faith hate to something productive, or maybe start your own church called “i dont believe in shit and neither should you”[/quote]How incredibly progressive, enlightened and tolerant of you. I have more respect for HeadHunter.
[/quote]

LOL…welcome to PWI, where DILLIGAF is the order of the day!

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
@HH let’s say that an injury released a hormone or drug in the body that created a coma for three days and then miraculously the subject awoke with all his stength ?[/quote]

Nah, Jesus was a space alien. Its all right there in Paul’s Epistles.

These are far more reliable than the stuff written hundreds of years after Jesus’ death.

But seriously, Jesus being extraterrestrial seems far more reasonable than all the miraculous stuff.
[/quote]

Clearly, you know NOTHING about Paul’s epistles. Do you know what it takes to genuinely understand Paul’s epistles? Extensive knowledge of Greco-Roman history, religions, and social structures; facility with a particular Greek dialect (koine), Greek rhetoric, and ancient epistolary theory; deep familiarity with BOTH the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures) AND the Hebrew Scriptures; understanding of Second Temple Apocalypticism and Messianic expectations; and the list goes on.

Don’t presume to know ANYTHING about Paul.[/quote]

Typical religious response…“You’re not a scholar! I’ve studied this (nonsense) for years!! How dare you!!”

I can read. And Paul’s epistles clearly show that only a space alien, an extraterrestrial, could do the things that Jesus did.

To a wandering semi-literate like Paul, an extraterrestrial would have seem like a god. What’s the big deal with that? Jesus being an extraterrestrial actually makes far more sense. Why is that impossible to believe?
[/quote]

And once again you prove my point. You are borderline illiterate. That’s the typical religious response, huh? So what’s the nonsense the religious typically bring up? Fill in the blank, please. Because even a CURSORY reading of my statements clearly shows that I am talking about respected academic fields of study COMPLETELY INDEPENDENT OF PARTICULAR RELIGIOUS TRADITIONS. I referred to the study of history, sir (Greco-Roman history, religions, and social structures), the study of linguistics (koine Greek) and ancient communication (rhetoric and epistolary theory); the study of ancient literature (Hebrew Scriptures and Septuagint); and the study of the thought world of Second Temple Judaism. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY ATHEISTS WORK IN THESE FIELDS? These are purely academic arenas, not fields of “religious nonsense.”

Once again, you have proven you cannot interpret texts to save your life, thus rendering ANY comments of your’s about the nature of the Pauline writings about as relevant as a baboon’s.

Moreover, you need to find a position for yourself and hold to it. One minute you claim there is virtually no evidence for Jesus’ miracles, and the next minute, you posit that Jesus did miracles because he was an alien. IF YOU HAD ACTUALLY READ PAUL, you would know (just like scholars have noted for DECADES) that Paul says next to NOTHING about the life of Jesus. His focus is ENTIRELY on Jesus’ death and resurrection; he does NOT talk about Jesus’ miracles. That means that there is NOTHING in Paul’s depiction of Jesus that requires us to believe that Jesus was a space alien. Paul attributes Jesus’ rise from the dead entirely to God’s action, not Jesus’.

Furthermore, you’re anachronistic reading of history is both comical and insulting. Paul was NOT semi-literate; his intelligence and training far surpassed your own.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]SHREDTODEATH wrote:
I never post here in pwi but what the hell. Ive noticed some here are VERY troubled by other peoples belief systems. I for one do believe in god, now i also believe in evolution and im pro-choice. I dont care if people choose to worship satan and drink blood (as long as blood is given willingly). Why should i care what others believe? Do i think some beliefs are crazy or stupid? yes but I have to ask HH why are you so troubled by christianity? I think maybe you were assaulted sexually or otherwise by a person of faith? No? did one of those televangilist take your money? fuck your wife? Im sorry for the wrong they did to you sincerely. Now can we let people worship whatever god, deity, spirit, space alien or golden statue they like without going out of our way to stir shit among them? Give it a shot devote some of your faith hate to something productive, or maybe start your own church called “i dont believe in shit and neither should you”[/quote]How incredibly progressive, enlightened and tolerant of you. I have more respect for HeadHunter.
[/quote]

I completely disagree with SHREDTODEATH’s assertions, but I have no respect for HeadHunter. At least Shred is aware of his situatedness in a particular time and place in history; HH doesn’t even know what a presupposition is and certainly wouldn’t even entertain the possibility that his views are… gasp… relative to his own position in time and space. He exhibits ZERO self-awareness; he is a pseudo-intellectual, lying, Christ-basher.

[quote]SHREDTODEATH wrote:
I never post here in pwi but what the hell. Ive noticed some here are VERY troubled by other peoples belief systems. I for one do believe in god, now i also believe in evolution and im pro-choice. I dont care if people choose to worship satan and drink blood (as long as blood is given willingly). Why should i care what others believe? Do i think some beliefs are crazy or stupid? yes but I have to ask HH why are you so troubled by christianity? I think maybe you were assaulted sexually or otherwise by a person of faith? No? did one of those televangilist take your money? fuck your wife? Im sorry for the wrong they did to you sincerely. Now can we let people worship whatever god, deity, spirit, space alien or golden statue they like without going out of our way to stir shit among them? Give it a shot devote some of your faith hate to something productive, or maybe start your own church called “i dont believe in shit and neither should you”[/quote]

It becomes a problem when people’s religious beliefs start affecting others, whether through law, policy, or in some other fashion.

[quote]SHREDTODEATH wrote:
I never post here in pwi but what the hell. Ive noticed some here are VERY troubled by other peoples belief systems. I for one do believe in god, now i also believe in evolution and im pro-choice. I dont care if people choose to worship satan and drink blood (as long as blood is given willingly). Why should i care what others believe? Do i think some beliefs are crazy or stupid? yes but I have to ask HH why are you so troubled by christianity? I think maybe you were assaulted sexually or otherwise by a person of faith? No? did one of those televangilist take your money? fuck your wife? Im sorry for the wrong they did to you sincerely. Now can we let people worship whatever god, deity, spirit, space alien or golden statue they like without going out of our way to stir shit among them? Give it a shot devote some of your faith hate to something productive, or maybe start your own church called “i dont believe in shit and neither should you”[/quote]

Religion is anti-mind. Faith is the substitution of someone else’s judgment for your own.

It is mysticism, of gun or religion, that is destroying the world.

If you think that’s not worth fighting against, well, just bend over and pepper thy angus.

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

Moreover, you need to find a position for yourself and hold to it. One minute you claim there is virtually no evidence for Jesus’ miracles, and the next minute, you posit that Jesus did miracles because he was an alien. IF YOU HAD ACTUALLY READ PAUL, you would know (just like scholars have noted for DECADES) that Paul says next to NOTHING about the life of Jesus. His focus is ENTIRELY on Jesus’ death and resurrection; he does NOT talk about Jesus’ miracles. That means that there is NOTHING in Paul’s depiction of Jesus that requires us to believe that Jesus was a space alien. Paul attributes Jesus’ rise from the dead entirely to God’s action, not Jesus’.

Furthermore, you’re anachronistic reading of history is both comical and insulting. Paul was NOT semi-literate; his intelligence and training far surpassed your own. [/quote]

I’m well-aware of how Paul had all these fantasies. I know that ‘young woman’ got mistranslated as ‘virgin’ and blah-blah-blah.

I also know that, and as you’ve said, that there is NO EVIDENCE for Jesus performing miracles, except for stories written hundreds of years after Jesus died at Masada.

And you guys believe in this stuff…

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

Moreover, you need to find a position for yourself and hold to it. One minute you claim there is virtually no evidence for Jesus’ miracles, and the next minute, you posit that Jesus did miracles because he was an alien. IF YOU HAD ACTUALLY READ PAUL, you would know (just like scholars have noted for DECADES) that Paul says next to NOTHING about the life of Jesus. His focus is ENTIRELY on Jesus’ death and resurrection; he does NOT talk about Jesus’ miracles. That means that there is NOTHING in Paul’s depiction of Jesus that requires us to believe that Jesus was a space alien. Paul attributes Jesus’ rise from the dead entirely to God’s action, not Jesus’.

Furthermore, you’re anachronistic reading of history is both comical and insulting. Paul was NOT semi-literate; his intelligence and training far surpassed your own. [/quote]

I’m well-aware of how Paul had all these fantasies. I know that ‘young woman’ got mistranslated as ‘virgin’ and blah-blah-blah.

I also know that, and as you’ve said, that there is NO EVIDENCE for Jesus performing miracles, except for stories written hundreds of years after Jesus died at Masada.

And you guys believe in this stuff…

[/quote]

Hooked on phonics, HH. It’s worked for a lot of people. I’m sure it’ll work for you.

I love how you COMPLETELY ignored the first portion of my post; you were too embarrassed to deal with it, which I understand. I don’t expect you to admit you’re wrong. Getting you to shut up is good enough for me.

I did NOT say that there is no evidence for Jesus performing miracles. I said that YOU SAID (and I quote), “there is LITTLE EVIDENCE…” More importantly, I said that PAUL’S WRITINGS do not provide evidence for Jesus’ miracles. That doesn’t mean Paul didn’t believe that Jesus did miracles. More importantly, THE GOSPELS (“stories,” as you called them) WERE NOT WRITTEN HUNDREDS OF YEAR AFTER JESUS DIED (and Jesus certainly did NOT die at Masada). The gospels were written within 50 years of Jesus’ death, some considerably earlier. Jesus died at Calvary, NOT Masada.

We don’t believe in the nonsense you are spouting. You don’t even know what we believe. And every time I present a cogent argument, you ignore it. Once again, find a position and hold to it.

Are you bipolar? One of my family members is bipolar, and he fancies himself a scholar just like you. He’s equally bigoted and ignorant about every other belief system as you are. He cannot focus; he jumps from one position to the next, just like you.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SHREDTODEATH wrote:
I never post here in pwi but what the hell. Ive noticed some here are VERY troubled by other peoples belief systems. I for one do believe in god, now i also believe in evolution and im pro-choice. I dont care if people choose to worship satan and drink blood (as long as blood is given willingly). Why should i care what others believe? Do i think some beliefs are crazy or stupid? yes but I have to ask HH why are you so troubled by christianity? I think maybe you were assaulted sexually or otherwise by a person of faith? No? did one of those televangilist take your money? fuck your wife? Im sorry for the wrong they did to you sincerely. Now can we let people worship whatever god, deity, spirit, space alien or golden statue they like without going out of our way to stir shit among them? Give it a shot devote some of your faith hate to something productive, or maybe start your own church called “i dont believe in shit and neither should you”[/quote]

Religion is anti-mind. Faith is the substitution of someone else’s judgment for your own.

It is mysticism, of gun or religion, that is destroying the world.

If you think that’s not worth fighting against, well, just bend over and pepper thy angus.
[/quote]
Lets pretend you just won me over and im on your side. Now what should be the first step? Go out and round up everyone who does not share our beliefs brand or tattoo them for reference. then maybe we could start an inquisition and rid ourselves of these believers or maybe instead of a holy war we could start non faith war and be done we these mystics…wait what other people in history did this? Would this make us just like the ones we hate?

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

Moreover, you need to find a position for yourself and hold to it. One minute you claim there is virtually no evidence for Jesus’ miracles, and the next minute, you posit that Jesus did miracles because he was an alien. IF YOU HAD ACTUALLY READ PAUL, you would know (just like scholars have noted for DECADES) that Paul says next to NOTHING about the life of Jesus. His focus is ENTIRELY on Jesus’ death and resurrection; he does NOT talk about Jesus’ miracles. That means that there is NOTHING in Paul’s depiction of Jesus that requires us to believe that Jesus was a space alien. Paul attributes Jesus’ rise from the dead entirely to God’s action, not Jesus’.

Furthermore, you’re anachronistic reading of history is both comical and insulting. Paul was NOT semi-literate; his intelligence and training far surpassed your own. [/quote]

I’m well-aware of how Paul had all these fantasies. I know that ‘young woman’ got mistranslated as ‘virgin’ and blah-blah-blah.

I also know that, and as you’ve said, that there is NO EVIDENCE for Jesus performing miracles, except for stories written hundreds of years after Jesus died at Masada.

And you guys believe in this stuff…

[/quote]

Hooked on phonics, HH. It’s worked for a lot of people. I’m sure it’ll work for you.

I love how you COMPLETELY ignored the first portion of my post; you were too embarrassed to deal with it, which I understand. I don’t expect you to admit you’re wrong. Getting you to shut up is good enough for me.

I did NOT say that there is no evidence for Jesus performing miracles. I said that YOU SAID (and I quote), “there is LITTLE EVIDENCE…” More importantly, I said that PAUL’S WRITINGS do not provide evidence for Jesus’ miracles. That doesn’t mean Paul didn’t believe that Jesus did miracles. More importantly, THE GOSPELS (“stories,” as you called them) WERE NOT WRITTEN HUNDREDS OF YEAR AFTER JESUS DIED (and Jesus certainly did NOT die at Masada). The gospels were written within 50 years of Jesus’ death, some considerably earlier. Jesus died at Calvary, NOT Masada.

We don’t believe in the nonsense you are spouting. You don’t even know what we believe. And every time I present a cogent argument, you ignore it. Once again, find a position and hold to it.

Are you bipolar? One of my family members is bipolar, and he fancies himself a scholar just like you. He’s equally bigoted and ignorant about every other belief system as you are. He cannot focus; he jumps from one position to the next, just like you. [/quote]

It usually took days for people to die on the cross. In fact, Pilate is surprised (read yer bible, dude) when Jesus has died after a few hours…“What! A young strong carpenter dies after only a few hours??”

And then, it was strictly forbidden to take a body down from a cross. Carrion birds were supposed to eat the victim. Yet they took him down…

Truth: Pilate got bribed, Jesus recovered at a brah’s house, and Pilate told him to GTFO or next time its the real deal.

Jesus died at Masala,dude.

Jesus was probably a pretty good dude. Too bad scoundrels took his good name and attached all these fairy tales.

[quote]SHREDTODEATH wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]SHREDTODEATH wrote:
I never post here in pwi but what the hell. Ive noticed some here are VERY troubled by other peoples belief systems. I for one do believe in god, now i also believe in evolution and im pro-choice. I dont care if people choose to worship satan and drink blood (as long as blood is given willingly). Why should i care what others believe? Do i think some beliefs are crazy or stupid? yes but I have to ask HH why are you so troubled by christianity? I think maybe you were assaulted sexually or otherwise by a person of faith? No? did one of those televangilist take your money? fuck your wife? Im sorry for the wrong they did to you sincerely. Now can we let people worship whatever god, deity, spirit, space alien or golden statue they like without going out of our way to stir shit among them? Give it a shot devote some of your faith hate to something productive, or maybe start your own church called “i dont believe in shit and neither should you”[/quote]

Religion is anti-mind. Faith is the substitution of someone else’s judgment for your own.

It is mysticism, of gun or religion, that is destroying the world.

If you think that’s not worth fighting against, well, just bend over and pepper thy angus.
[/quote]
Lets pretend you just won me over and im on your side. Now what should be the first step? Go out and round up everyone who does not share our beliefs brand or tattoo them for reference. then maybe we could start an inquisition and rid ourselves of these believers or maybe instead of a holy war we could start non faith war and be done we these mystics…wait what other people in history did this? Would this make us just like the ones we hate?[/quote]

Outlaw crack.

exactly i knew there was no next step. Just continue to be condescending to people in order to validate our perceived intellectual superiority.

[quote]SHREDTODEATH wrote:
exactly i knew there was no next step. Just continue to be condescending to people in order to validate our perceived intellectual superiority.[/quote]

How SHOULD I respond if someone wants to say I’m a murderous fascist?

Well i was being a little dramatic. I dont think you would go that far, but whats the point? If you truly believe religon is destroying your world there should be a plan. Instead of just bashing “mystics” on tnation. It really reminds me of hardline religous fanatics who go around telling everyone they are going to hell for not thinking EXACTLY as they do. You dont have a hell to condemn them to but it smells like think what i think or you are somehow less of a person than me.

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]SHREDTODEATH wrote:
I never post here in pwi but what the hell. Ive noticed some here are VERY troubled by other peoples belief systems. I for one do believe in god, now i also believe in evolution and im pro-choice. I dont care if people choose to worship satan and drink blood (as long as blood is given willingly). Why should i care what others believe? Do i think some beliefs are crazy or stupid? yes but I have to ask HH why are you so troubled by christianity? I think maybe you were assaulted sexually or otherwise by a person of faith? No? did one of those televangilist take your money? fuck your wife? Im sorry for the wrong they did to you sincerely. Now can we let people worship whatever god, deity, spirit, space alien or golden statue they like without going out of our way to stir shit among them? Give it a shot devote some of your faith hate to something productive, or maybe start your own church called “i dont believe in shit and neither should you”[/quote]

It becomes a problem when people’s religious beliefs start affecting others, whether through law, policy, or in some other fashion.
[/quote]

Everyone’s beliefs affect everyone else. That’s how things work.

Good example: Headhunter claims no religion, and I sure as hell know I don’t want him shaping policy. That’s why we all get a vote, no matter how crazy. Sorry, but you Thetans have to share the country with the rest of us.

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]SHREDTODEATH wrote:
I never post here in pwi but what the hell. Ive noticed some here are VERY troubled by other peoples belief systems. I for one do believe in god, now i also believe in evolution and im pro-choice. I dont care if people choose to worship satan and drink blood (as long as blood is given willingly). Why should i care what others believe? Do i think some beliefs are crazy or stupid? yes but I have to ask HH why are you so troubled by christianity? I think maybe you were assaulted sexually or otherwise by a person of faith? No? did one of those televangilist take your money? fuck your wife? Im sorry for the wrong they did to you sincerely. Now can we let people worship whatever god, deity, spirit, space alien or golden statue they like without going out of our way to stir shit among them? Give it a shot devote some of your faith hate to something productive, or maybe start your own church called “i dont believe in shit and neither should you”[/quote]

It becomes a problem when people’s religious beliefs start affecting others, whether through law, policy, or in some other fashion.
[/quote]

Everyone’s beliefs affect everyone else. That’s how things work.[/quote]

It becomes a problem when an individual’s religious beliefs affect policy and law.
Secularism and keep it to yourself ftw.

[quote]Matty wrote:It becomes a problem when an individual’s religious beliefs affect policy and law.
Secularism and keep it to yourself ftw. [/quote]Lemme know if you need some more.[quote]George Washington
1st U.S. President

“While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian.”
–The Writings of Washington, pp. 342-343.

John Adams
2nd U.S. President and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

“Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God … What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be.”
–Diary and Autobiography of John Adams, Vol. III, p. 9.

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.

“Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System.”
–Adams wrote this on June 28, 1813, excerpt from a letter to Thomas Jefferson.

“The second day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable epoch in the history of America. I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated by succeeding generations as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance, by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with pomp and parade, with shows, games, sports, guns, bells, bonfires and illuminations, from one end of this continent to the other, from this time forward forever.”
–Adams wrote this in a letter to his wife, Abigail, on July 3, 1776.

Thomas Jefferson
3rd U.S. President, Drafter and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in that event.”
Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVIII, p. 237.

John Hancock
1st Signer of the Declaration of Independence

“Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. … Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us.”
–History of the United States of America, Vol. II, p. 229.

Samuel Adams
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Father of the American Revolution

“And as it is our duty to extend our wishes to the happiness of the great family of man, I conceive that we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world that the rod of tyrants may be broken to pieces, and the oppressed made free again; that wars may cease in all the earth, and that the confusions that are and have been among nations may be overruled by promoting and speedily bringing on that holy and happy period when the kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and all people everywhere willingly bow to the sceptre of Him who is Prince of Peace.”
–As Governor of Massachusetts, Proclamation of a Day of Fast, March 20, 1797.

James Monroe
5th U.S. President

“When we view the blessings with which our country has been favored, those which we now enjoy, and the means which we possess of handing them down unimpaired to our latest posterity, our attention is irresistibly drawn to the source from whence they flow. Let us then, unite in offering our most grateful acknowledgments for these blessings to the Divine Author of All Good.”
2nd Annual Message to Congress, November 16, 1818.

John Quincy Adams
6th U.S. President

“The hope of a Christian is inseparable from his faith. Whoever believes in the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures must hope that the religion of Jesus shall prevail throughout the earth. Never since the foundation of the world have the prospects of mankind been more encouraging to that hope than they appear to be at the present time. And may the associated distribution of the Bible proceed and prosper till the Lord shall have made ‘bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God’ (Isaiah 52:10).”
Life of John Quincy Adams, p. 248

William Penn
Founder of Pennsylvania

“I do declare to the whole world that we believe the Scriptures to contain a declaration of the mind and will of God in and to those ages in which they were written; being given forth by the Holy Ghost moving in the hearts of holy men of God; that they ought also to be read, believed, and fulfilled in our day; being used for reproof and instruction, that the man of God may be perfect. They are a declaration and testimony of heavenly things themselves, and, as such, we carry a high respect for them. We accept them as the words of God Himself.”
–Treatise of the Religion of the Quakers, p. 355.

Roger Sherman
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and United States Constitution

"I believe that there is one only living and true God, existing in three persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, the same in substance equal in power and glory. That the scriptures of the old and new testaments are a revelation from God, and a complete rule to direct us how we may glorify and enjoy him. That God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass, so as thereby he is not the author or approver of sin. That he creates all things, and preserves and governs all creatures and all their actions, in a manner perfectly consistent with the freedom of will in moral agents, and the usefulness of means. That he made man at first perfectly holy, that the first man sinned, and as he was the public head of his posterity, they all became sinners in consequence of his first transgression, are wholly indisposed to that which is good and inclined to evil, and on account of sin are liable to all the miseries of this life, to death, and to the pains of hell forever.

"I believe that God having elected some of mankind to eternal life, did send his own Son to become man, die in the room and stead of sinners and thus to lay a foundation for the offer of pardon and salvation to all mankind, so as all may be saved who are willing to accept the gospel offer: also by his special grace and spirit, to regenerate, sanctify and enable to persevere in holiness, all who shall be saved; and to procure in consequence of their repentance and faith in himself their justification by virtue of his atonement as the only meritorious cause.

"I believe a visible church to be a congregation of those who make a credible profession of their faith in Christ, and obedience to him, joined by the bond of the covenant.

“I believe that the souls of believers are at their death made perfectly holy, and immediately taken to glory: that at the end of this world there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a final judgement of all mankind, when the righteous shall be publicly acquitted by Christ the Judge and admitted to everlasting life and glory, and the wicked be sentenced to everlasting punishment.”
The Life of Roger Sherman, pp. 272-273.

Benjamin Rush
Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

“The gospel of Jesus Christ prescribes the wisest rules for just conduct in every situation of life. Happy they who are enabled to obey them in all situations!”
–The Autobiography of Benjamin Rush, pp. 165-166.

“Christianity is the only true and perfect religion, and that in proportion as mankind adopts its principles and obeys its precepts, they will be wise and happy.”
–Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

"I know there is an objection among many people to teaching children doctrines of any kind, because they are liable to be controverted. But let us not be wiser than our Maker.

“If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into all the world would have been unnecessary. The perfect morality of the gospel rests upon the doctrine which, though often controverted has never been refuted: I mean the vicarious life and death of the Son of God.”
–Essays, Literary, Moral, and Philosophical, published in 1798.

John Witherspoon
Signer of the Declaration of Independence, Clergyman and President of Princeton University AND ancestor of Reese Witherspoon

"While we give praise to God, the Supreme Disposer of all events, for His interposition on our behalf, let us guard against the dangerous error of trusting in, or boasting of, an arm of flesh … If your cause is just, if your principles are pure, and if your conduct is prudent, you need not fear the multitude of opposing hosts.

"What follows from this? That he is the best friend to American liberty, who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion, and who sets himself with the greatest firmness to bear down profanity and immorality of every kind.

“Whoever is an avowed enemy of God, I scruple not to call him an enemy of his country.”
Sermon at Princeton University, “The Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men,” May 17, 1776.

Patrick Henry
Ratifier of the U.S. Constitution

“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.”
–The Trumpet Voice of Freedom: Patrick Henry of Virginia, p. iii.

“The Bible … is a book worth more than all the other books that were ever printed.”
Sketches of the Life and Character of Patrick Henry, p. 402.

John Jay
1st Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court and President of the American Bible Society

"By conveying the Bible to people thus circumstanced, we certainly do them a most interesting kindness. We thereby enable them to learn that man was originally created and placed in a state of happiness, but, becoming disobedient, was subjected to the degradation and evils which he and his posterity have since experienced.

“The Bible will also inform them that our gracious Creator has provided for us a Redeemer, in whom all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; that this Redeemer has made atonement “for the sins of the whole world,” and thereby reconciling the Divine justice with the Divine mercy has opened a way for our redemption and salvation; and that these inestimable benefits are of the free gift and grace of God, not of our deserving, nor in our power to deserve.”
–In God We Trust?The Religious Beliefs and Ideas of the American Founding Fathers, p. 379.

“In forming and settling my belief relative to the doctrines of Christianity, I adopted no articles from creeds but such only as, on careful examination, I found to be confirmed by the Bible.”
American Statesman Series, p. 360. [/quote]
Wikipedia on the founding fathers. Religion section. [quote]Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Of the 55 delegates to the 1787 Constitutional Convention, 49 were Protestants, and two were Roman Catholics (D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons). Among the Protestant delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 28 were Church of England (or Episcopalian, after the American Revolutionary War was won), eight were Presbyterians, seven were Congregationalists, two were Lutherans, two were Dutch Reformed, and two were Methodists.

A few prominent Founding Fathers were anti-clerical Christians, such as Thomas Jefferson (who created the so-called “Jefferson Bible”) and Benjamin Franklin. Others (most notably Thomas Paine) were deists, or at least held beliefs very similar to those of deists.[/quote]

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]MattyG35 wrote:

[quote]SHREDTODEATH wrote:
I never post here in pwi but what the hell. Ive noticed some here are VERY troubled by other peoples belief systems. I for one do believe in god, now i also believe in evolution and im pro-choice. I dont care if people choose to worship satan and drink blood (as long as blood is given willingly). Why should i care what others believe? Do i think some beliefs are crazy or stupid? yes but I have to ask HH why are you so troubled by christianity? I think maybe you were assaulted sexually or otherwise by a person of faith? No? did one of those televangilist take your money? fuck your wife? Im sorry for the wrong they did to you sincerely. Now can we let people worship whatever god, deity, spirit, space alien or golden statue they like without going out of our way to stir shit among them? Give it a shot devote some of your faith hate to something productive, or maybe start your own church called “i dont believe in shit and neither should you”[/quote]

It becomes a problem when people’s religious beliefs start affecting others, whether through law, policy, or in some other fashion.
[/quote]

Everyone’s beliefs affect everyone else. That’s how things work.[/quote]

It becomes a problem when an individual’s religious beliefs affect policy and law.
Secularism and keep it to yourself ftw.[/quote]

It’s not a problem. Everyone brings their own set of indoctrinated beliefs to the voting booth. “Religion” has shaped policy and law for as long as policy and law have existed. If you think that anything but the tiniest sliver of your own personal ideas about morality and ethics have been formed independently, or, more outrageous yet, have NOT been almost wholly shaped by thousands of years of Judaism and Christianity, then you are more far gone than I thought.

I can argue all of my political beliefs from both secular and religious angles. They are not so easily separated, though, and if you think that just removing “religion” from politics is going to leave a fair playing field, you are going to have to explain what to do with all the truthers, birthers, secessionists, communists, socialists, Unabombers and all number of other whack-job political ideologies that have no affiliation with any religion at all.

From the angle I’m looking at my history book, “pure” rationality has not fared very well as an ideology at all.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

Moreover, you need to find a position for yourself and hold to it. One minute you claim there is virtually no evidence for Jesus’ miracles, and the next minute, you posit that Jesus did miracles because he was an alien. IF YOU HAD ACTUALLY READ PAUL, you would know (just like scholars have noted for DECADES) that Paul says next to NOTHING about the life of Jesus. His focus is ENTIRELY on Jesus’ death and resurrection; he does NOT talk about Jesus’ miracles. That means that there is NOTHING in Paul’s depiction of Jesus that requires us to believe that Jesus was a space alien. Paul attributes Jesus’ rise from the dead entirely to God’s action, not Jesus’.

Furthermore, you’re anachronistic reading of history is both comical and insulting. Paul was NOT semi-literate; his intelligence and training far surpassed your own. [/quote]

I’m well-aware of how Paul had all these fantasies. I know that ‘young woman’ got mistranslated as ‘virgin’ and blah-blah-blah.

I also know that, and as you’ve said, that there is NO EVIDENCE for Jesus performing miracles, except for stories written hundreds of years after Jesus died at Masada.

And you guys believe in this stuff…

[/quote]

Hooked on phonics, HH. It’s worked for a lot of people. I’m sure it’ll work for you.

I love how you COMPLETELY ignored the first portion of my post; you were too embarrassed to deal with it, which I understand. I don’t expect you to admit you’re wrong. Getting you to shut up is good enough for me.

I did NOT say that there is no evidence for Jesus performing miracles. I said that YOU SAID (and I quote), “there is LITTLE EVIDENCE…” More importantly, I said that PAUL’S WRITINGS do not provide evidence for Jesus’ miracles. That doesn’t mean Paul didn’t believe that Jesus did miracles. More importantly, THE GOSPELS (“stories,” as you called them) WERE NOT WRITTEN HUNDREDS OF YEAR AFTER JESUS DIED (and Jesus certainly did NOT die at Masada). The gospels were written within 50 years of Jesus’ death, some considerably earlier. Jesus died at Calvary, NOT Masada.

We don’t believe in the nonsense you are spouting. You don’t even know what we believe. And every time I present a cogent argument, you ignore it. Once again, find a position and hold to it.

Are you bipolar? One of my family members is bipolar, and he fancies himself a scholar just like you. He’s equally bigoted and ignorant about every other belief system as you are. He cannot focus; he jumps from one position to the next, just like you. [/quote]

It usually took days for people to die on the cross. In fact, Pilate is surprised (read yer bible, dude) when Jesus has died after a few hours…“What! A young strong carpenter dies after only a few hours??”

And then, it was strictly forbidden to take a body down from a cross. Carrion birds were supposed to eat the victim. Yet they took him down…

Truth: Pilate got bribed, Jesus recovered at a brah’s house, and Pilate told him to GTFO or next time its the real deal.

Jesus died at Masala,dude.

Jesus was probably a pretty good dude. Too bad scoundrels took his good name and attached all these fairy tales.
[/quote]

Are you serious dude? I don’t post often but I just had to step in at this point. Please provide a smidgen of evidence for these claims. I don’t even care if its a wikipedia article, just provide something.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

[quote]KingKai25 wrote:

Moreover, you need to find a position for yourself and hold to it. One minute you claim there is virtually no evidence for Jesus’ miracles, and the next minute, you posit that Jesus did miracles because he was an alien. IF YOU HAD ACTUALLY READ PAUL, you would know (just like scholars have noted for DECADES) that Paul says next to NOTHING about the life of Jesus. His focus is ENTIRELY on Jesus’ death and resurrection; he does NOT talk about Jesus’ miracles. That means that there is NOTHING in Paul’s depiction of Jesus that requires us to believe that Jesus was a space alien. Paul attributes Jesus’ rise from the dead entirely to God’s action, not Jesus’.

Furthermore, you’re anachronistic reading of history is both comical and insulting. Paul was NOT semi-literate; his intelligence and training far surpassed your own. [/quote]

I’m well-aware of how Paul had all these fantasies. I know that ‘young woman’ got mistranslated as ‘virgin’ and blah-blah-blah.

I also know that, and as you’ve said, that there is NO EVIDENCE for Jesus performing miracles, except for stories written hundreds of years after Jesus died at Masada.

And you guys believe in this stuff…

[/quote]

And you believe Rand LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Only idiots do that!

My dog shit more wisdom on my lawn that Rand could eek out in a life time. And you’re dumb enough to buy it LOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOLOLOL!!!

Please don’t ever become religious, you’d be an embarrassment to the branch dividians.