I was just snooping around the web for some complexes, because I need to get in shape for boxing, and my intuition tells me to check out CT’s forum… lo’ and behold EXACTLY what I needed! Thank you so much CT!
Ok, first time trying these for real last night, using the full snatch lift. I wanted a full body lift for this, need more volume snatching, and my snatch sucks (88% of BW), so I knew the weight would not be super heavy
Layer 1 Full snatch from floor: Ramp to 145x2
Layer 2 Hang snatch from Knee (off boxes): 95x3x5, 95x2x5, 95x1x5, starting every half minute
Layer 3: Klokov Snatch Complex (#5 above): 65x4reps x3, resting 90s between sets
Let me say, these are awesome!! I was “hot” for hours after completing this. Best metabolic stim I’ve had since my first week trying the “Superhero Star complexes” two years ago. A few observations:
- Layer 2 Snatching “fast reps” is tricky. After each rep, the bar is bouncing, settling, then regripping, and going again. For the triples and doubles, I was having trouble keeping the cadence. I more or less did a cluster set of 25 reps. LOL.
- The first run through the complex, I was breathing hard by the end of the 20 reps. By the third one, I was “reaching deep down” to keep my form and complete the movements. Definitely the most challenging thing I have ever done with only 65 on the bar.
- I did 5 sets in my ramp, so essentially I did 100 total reps for the snatch (10+30+60) in under 25min. There is a joke in there, most certainly one in poor taste.
- The effect on my delts (front and rear) is so obvious, my favorite shirt fits differently today. They are not so much sore as “full” and more pronounced.
We’ll have to see if the DOMS kicks in fierce later, but I think these will be a staple for me during this cut.
CT, you are a man among men, the Archimedes of muscle. Thanks!!
[quote]orcrist wrote:
Ok, first time trying these for real last night, using the full snatch lift. I wanted a full body lift for this, need more volume snatching, and my snatch sucks (88% of BW), so I knew the weight would not be super heavy
Layer 1 Full snatch from floor: Ramp to 145x2
Layer 2 Hang snatch from Knee (off boxes): 95x3x5, 95x2x5, 95x1x5, starting every half minute
Layer 3: Klokov Snatch Complex (#5 above): 65x4reps x3, resting 90s between sets
Let me say, these are awesome!! I was “hot” for hours after completing this. Best metabolic stim I’ve had since my first week trying the “Superhero Star complexes” two years ago. A few observations:
- Layer 2 Snatching “fast reps” is tricky. After each rep, the bar is bouncing, settling, then regripping, and going again. For the triples and doubles, I was having trouble keeping the cadence. I more or less did a cluster set of 25 reps. LOL.
- The first run through the complex, I was breathing hard by the end of the 20 reps. By the third one, I was “reaching deep down” to keep my form and complete the movements. Definitely the most challenging thing I have ever done with only 65 on the bar.
- I did 5 sets in my ramp, so essentially I did 100 total reps for the snatch (10+30+60) in under 25min. There is a joke in there, most certainly one in poor taste.
- The effect on my delts (front and rear) is so obvious, my favorite shirt fits differently today. They are not so much sore as “full” and more pronounced.
We’ll have to see if the DOMS kicks in fierce later, but I think these will be a staple for me during this cut.
CT, you are a man among men, the Archimedes of muscle. Thanks!!
[/quote]
I’m glad you posted your results as I haven’t tried doing this layer system format with a lift like the power snatch. During the 5x3 part, do you feel like power snatch may not be an optimal lift for this method because of having to reset and everything? I’ve done a decl and incl bench and high pull with this complex layout and absolutely love it. The complexes at the end are unreal.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]Tulkas15 wrote:
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]Floodzone004 wrote:
Hey CT, I know you’re into olympic lifts and used to coach complexes into your programs and I was curious if they could be included in the layer system. Not as a main lift or anything, but maybe as a assistance/secondary type workout? Or even do two a days with one layer session and then another session focusing on olympic lifts perhaps?
I’m not incredibly experienced with the oly lifts, but I enjoy them and want to get better while staying on the incredibly productive layer system and figured you would know the best way to accomplish this. Thank you for any feedback![/quote]
Here is a layer workout that can be done using complexes:
LAYER 1
Main lift ramp to 1, 2 or 3RM
LAYER 2
Main lift
5 x 3 @ 65% (one set every 30 seconds)
5 x 2 with 10-20lbs more (one set every 30 sec)
5 x 1 with 10-20lbs more (one set every 30 sec)
LAYER 3
Barbell complex
2-3 sets
Here are some of the complexes that I use:
-
The Bear (1 power clean, 1 front squat, 1 thruster/push press, 1 back squat, 1 BTN thruster/push press)
Strength & power: 70-80% of push press for 1 or 2 reps
Hypertrophy: 50-70% of push press for 2-3 reps
Metabolic conditioning: 40-60% of push press for 4-7 reps -
Super Bear (1 squat clean, 1 thruster/push press, 1 back squat, 1 snatch push press, 1 overhead squat)
Strength & power: 70-80% of push press for 1 or 2 reps
Hypertrophy: 50-70% of push press for 2-3 reps
Metabolic conditioning: 40-60% of push press for 4-7 reps -
Klokov complex (1 deadlift, 1 clean, 1 paused front squat, 1 push press, 1 split jerk)
Strength & power: 70-80% of push press for 1 or 2 reps
Hypertrophy: 50-70% of push press for 2-3 reps
Metabolic conditioning: 40-60% of push press for 4-7 reps -
Klokov snatch complex (1 snatch-grip deadlift, 1 snatch high pull from hang, 1 power or muscle snatch, 1 snatch push press, 1 overhead squat)
Strength & power: 70-80% of power/muscle snatch for 1 or 2 reps
Hypertrophy: 50-70% of power/muscle snatch for 2-3 reps
Metabolic conditioning: 40-60% of power/muscle snatch for 4-7 reps -
Klokov snatch complex advanced (1 snatch-grip deadlift, 1 snatch high pull from hang, 1 snatch, 1 bottom snatch press, 1 overhead squat)
Strength & power: 70-80% of snatch for 1 or 2 reps
Hypertrophy: 50-70% of snatch for 2-3 reps
Metabolic conditioning: 40-60% of snatch for 4-7 reps -
Canadian Bear (1 clean-grip muscle snatch, 1 military press, 1 push press, 1 back squat, 1 BTN push press)
Strength & power: 70-80% of military press for 1 or 2 reps
Hypertrophy: 50-70% of military press for 2-3 reps
Metabolic conditioning: 40-60% of military press for 4-7 reps
IMPORTANT: One rep is doing all the sequence once. So if you have 3 reps you do not do (for example) power clean, power clean, power clean, front squat, front squat, front squat, etc. you do all the sequence once, then start over again a second time then a third time.
[/quote]
CT,
Would you say this approach is the best to use if our focus is strength capacity? I feel my strength capacity is really lacking and would like to focus on improving it for a while. Thanks. [/quote]
Yes, also an amazing way to train for MMA and football IMHO
[/quote]
I think so to, I plan on starting them Monday and doing them 3 days a week. In the 8-10 rep range for conditioning and to work on my form.
[quote]orcrist wrote:
Ok, first time trying these for real last night, using the full snatch lift. I wanted a full body lift for this, need more volume snatching, and my snatch sucks (88% of BW), so I knew the weight would not be super heavy
Layer 1 Full snatch from floor: Ramp to 145x2
Layer 2 Hang snatch from Knee (off boxes): 95x3x5, 95x2x5, 95x1x5, starting every half minute
Layer 3: Klokov Snatch Complex (#5 above): 65x4reps x3, resting 90s between sets
Let me say, these are awesome!! I was “hot” for hours after completing this. Best metabolic stim I’ve had since my first week trying the “Superhero Star complexes” two years ago. A few observations:
- Layer 2 Snatching “fast reps” is tricky. After each rep, the bar is bouncing, settling, then regripping, and going again. For the triples and doubles, I was having trouble keeping the cadence. I more or less did a cluster set of 25 reps. LOL.
- The first run through the complex, I was breathing hard by the end of the 20 reps. By the third one, I was “reaching deep down” to keep my form and complete the movements. Definitely the most challenging thing I have ever done with only 65 on the bar.
- I did 5 sets in my ramp, so essentially I did 100 total reps for the snatch (10+30+60) in under 25min. There is a joke in there, most certainly one in poor taste.
- The effect on my delts (front and rear) is so obvious, my favorite shirt fits differently today. They are not so much sore as “full” and more pronounced.
We’ll have to see if the DOMS kicks in fierce later, but I think these will be a staple for me during this cut.
CT, you are a man among men, the Archimedes of muscle. Thanks!!
[/quote]
Its good to know that even with light weight you can get good work… Because when I do them its gonna be LIGHT WEIGHT!!
[quote]Floodzone004 wrote:
I’m glad you posted your results as I haven’t tried doing this layer system format with a lift like the power snatch. During the 5x3 part, do you feel like power snatch may not be an optimal lift for this method because of having to reset and everything? I’ve done a decl and incl bench and high pull with this complex layout and absolutely love it. The complexes at the end are unreal.[/quote]
Flood, The snatch is probably not the best exercise for the 2nd layer with this format. The only way to settle the bar and reset quickly was to keep a grip on the bar lowering it to the blocks. Even doing this carefully, there was a fair amount of jostling and bouncing. My hands really took a beating, and today I still have fluid bubbles under my best calluses. I might suggest the second layer with a SGHP from the hang, with straps, as an alternate. It is not as total-body as the full snatch, but I can keep that in the first and third layers. Perhaps this forum’s namesake will have a more intelligent suggestion for you.
My workout tonight was going to be:
Clean and Jerk ramp
Cleans x3x5,x2x5,x1x5
Clean Complex x4x3
I think I might do launchers (front squat to a push press) for the second layer instead, just to give my hands a break.
[quote]orcrist wrote:
[quote]Floodzone004 wrote:
I’m glad you posted your results as I haven’t tried doing this layer system format with a lift like the power snatch. During the 5x3 part, do you feel like power snatch may not be an optimal lift for this method because of having to reset and everything? I’ve done a decl and incl bench and high pull with this complex layout and absolutely love it. The complexes at the end are unreal.[/quote]
Flood, The snatch is probably not the best exercise for the 2nd layer with this format. The only way to settle the bar and reset quickly was to keep a grip on the bar lowering it to the blocks. Even doing this carefully, there was a fair amount of jostling and bouncing. My hands really took a beating, and today I still have fluid bubbles under my best calluses. I might suggest the second layer with a SGHP from the hang, with straps, as an alternate. It is not as total-body as the full snatch, but I can keep that in the first and third layers. Perhaps this forum’s namesake will have a more intelligent suggestion for you.
My workout tonight was going to be:
Clean and Jerk ramp
Cleans x3x5,x2x5,x1x5
Clean Complex x4x3
I think I might do launchers (front squat to a push press) for the second layer instead, just to give my hands a break.
[/quote]
Very good information, I’ll definitely keep that in mind. Feel free to keep us all updated here on how your session go! I’ll post my results eventually too.
Just wanted to report in here to give an update to anyone that is interested or is doing this format. Just did a front squat workout today and it is no joke. The second layer will test your limits. The complexes are fantastic, the ability to increase strength/strength capacity while practicing OL lifts is ideal for me.
Today is my first day starting this cycle legitimately as before I was adhering to a different cycle just with this format, though I’ve already experienced gains, particularly with strength capacity. My 7 day split (I’ve always done 7 day splits, but I may make it a 10 day cycle as CT seems to recommend this) is going to be:
Front Squat, 6 sets of RDL at 65% with an emphasis on explosion
Slight Incline Bench
SGHP, DL Workout that CT described in his Deadlift:Friend or Foe Thread
Slight Decline Bench
SGHP, DL Workout
Power Clean and Press
Rest/BeachWork/SGHP (I’ll make a judgement call that day if I should just rest and recover or not)
I’ll be doing the layer workout in the morning and then have a OL lift technique session in the evening (Been doing 2x a days for a long time so CNS shouldn’t be an issue). I’m open to suggestions to a possible assistance exercise for bench days, but as I’ve realized between the main lift layers and the complexes my shoulders and tris get hit pretty hard so I don’t think say 4-6 sets of an overhead press will be a good idea, so perhaps an assistance chest exercise.
Flood,
Been offline for a week, but still lifting, and I’m learning this whole thing is tricky to fine-tune for volume, also. My goal: trying to maintain my WL total while dropping down into a weight class, using WL-based strength layers plus metcon-oriented complexes.
My split:
Day 1: Snatch Ramp to 1RM, then Snatch 90%x3x2
SGHP Ramp to 3RM, then SGHP clusters or hard 5’s
Day 2: C&J Ramp to 2RM, then Front Squat x3/2/1 for 15 sets in 8 minutes
C&J Complex from above, 50% x24reps x2-3 sets
Day 3: Active Rest, recovery methods
Day 4: Clean & Press Ramp to 1RM, CnP Clusters 90% x2 sets
Pushpress Ramp to 3RM, then 90% x3x2
Tricep HDL
Day 5: Snatch to 2RM, then SGHP @100% x3/2/1 for 15 sets in 8min
Snatch Complex 50% x20reps x2-3sets
Day 6: Circuit of bodyweight exercises.
Day 7: Recovery methods
So far, I am not losing much weight. I am definitely leaner (increased vascularity) and my delts are actually growing. I also hit a PR in the full snatch this week ramping. I don’t really want to drop my calories too much, because recovery is already a challenge. I think layers are such a powerful anabolic stimulus, I am not sure it makes sense to use them so heavily while trying to cut weight.
[quote]orcrist wrote:
Flood,
Been offline for a week, but still lifting, and I’m learning this whole thing is tricky to fine-tune for volume, also. My goal: trying to maintain my WL total while dropping down into a weight class, using WL-based strength layers plus metcon-oriented complexes.
My split:
Day 1: Snatch Ramp to 1RM, then Snatch 90%x3x2
SGHP Ramp to 3RM, then SGHP clusters or hard 5’s
Day 2: C&J Ramp to 2RM, then Front Squat x3/2/1 for 15 sets in 8 minutes
C&J Complex from above, 50% x24reps x2-3 sets
Day 3: Active Rest, recovery methods
Day 4: Clean & Press Ramp to 1RM, CnP Clusters 90% x2 sets
Pushpress Ramp to 3RM, then 90% x3x2
Tricep HDL
Day 5: Snatch to 2RM, then SGHP @100% x3/2/1 for 15 sets in 8min
Snatch Complex 50% x20reps x2-3sets
Day 6: Circuit of bodyweight exercises.
Day 7: Recovery methods
So far, I am not losing much weight. I am definitely leaner (increased vascularity) and my delts are actually growing. I also hit a PR in the full snatch this week ramping. I don’t really want to drop my calories too much, because recovery is already a challenge. I think layers are such a powerful anabolic stimulus, I am not sure it makes sense to use them so heavily while trying to cut weight. [/quote]
That was gonna be my comment… the problem with using complexes to drop a weigth class is that they normally lead to a gain in muscle mass, at least initially, which means that even if you are dropping fat the scale might not go down much. After about a month the fat loss will continue and the muscle gains will slow down a bit (sadly) so if you stick with it, you should be able to drop down a class.
CT, do you ever to Olympic combo focused training sessions? one day in the gym ramping to max was just not working, My body was out of the zone for it.
So I decided to just do combos, I did 3 of the combos you listed in this thread for 3 sets each, the first (klokov) I did for 1-2 reps, the second (Canadian bear) I did for 3-4, and the third (super bear) I did for 4-5.
It tunred out to be an awesome session. Curious to know if there are any effective ways to set up sessions like this?
[quote]GmG-II wrote:
CT, do you ever to Olympic combo focused training sessions? one day in the gym ramping to max was just not working, My body was out of the zone for it.
So I decided to just do combos, I did 3 of the combos you listed in this thread for 3 sets each, the first (klokov) I did for 1-2 reps, the second (Canadian bear) I did for 3-4, and the third (super bear) I did for 4-5.
It tunred out to be an awesome session. Curious to know if there are any effective ways to set up sessions like this?[/quote]
Yes quite often actually. It is something that I also used quite a bit with the Crossfit athlete’s I’m training: one day is heavy olympic lifts, the second day is complexes.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]GmG-II wrote:
CT, do you ever to Olympic combo focused training sessions? one day in the gym ramping to max was just not working, My body was out of the zone for it.
So I decided to just do combos, I did 3 of the combos you listed in this thread for 3 sets each, the first (klokov) I did for 1-2 reps, the second (Canadian bear) I did for 3-4, and the third (super bear) I did for 4-5.
It tunred out to be an awesome session. Curious to know if there are any effective ways to set up sessions like this?[/quote]
Yes quite often actually. It is something that I also used quite a bit with the Crossfit athlete’s I’m training: one day is heavy olympic lifts, the second day is complexes.[/quote]
that is awesome! you have so many great programs…i wanna do all of them… lol
CT,
Well, you are correct, as usual. I set an all-time snatch PR last night during the snatch ramp, and my BW has not increased in the last 4 weeks. Plus, my favorite dress-shirt is officially too small across the shoulders now.
I have two tips for anyone trying this type of training.
- Take your rest periods on the ramps - I normally train “fast” with short rest intervals. With this type of training, there are plenty of those “partially recovered” sets, so use the ramps to really train strength, not conditioning.
- If you are using this program to drop some weight, stack most of the carbs for the day peri-workout, and don’t be afraid to have one meal per week with as many carbs as you can handle. To keep the metabolism up, it is helpful to have carbs rev’ing the engine, properly timed.
Thanks!!
CT,
I can’t commit to the layer system because I can only hit the gym 4 out of every 8 days. I’m doing the 5/3/1. I’m doing snatch before deadlift on deadlift day. I’m doing cleans before squats on squat day. During summer I typically work on my conditioning while maintaining my lifts. I’ve been pushing the prowler after my lower body days. Could I/Should I substitute some of the above mentioned complexes instead of the prowler. Maybe even use them instead of my other accessories i.e. Snatch, Deadlift and then complex and then be done? On a scale of 0-10 my level of conditioning is probably at a 2 or 3 right now so nearly anything will be an improvement…
Thank you for you time
Thibs,
I have a question for you about how to regulate the intensity of the Olympic lifts in these layers.
My confusion stems from this: It is easy to know when you have reached your limit on a conventional lift because speed will diminish, you will not be able to explode, etc.
Now, there is no way to not explode on the Olympic lifts, so that method of regulation is not quite applicable. So, when you say to work up to 1RM, am I correct to assume that you mean to work up to a good, high quality single at around 80%-85% as is done in traditional Oly planning (unless you are having one of those ON days, which in that case means to go for it)?
[quote]Alcibiades wrote:
Thibs,
I have a question for you about how to regulate the intensity of the Olympic lifts in these layers.
My confusion stems from this: It is easy to know when you have reached your limit on a conventional lift because speed will diminish, you will not be able to explode, etc.
Now, there is no way to not explode on the Olympic lifts, so that method of regulation is not quite applicable. So, when you say to work up to 1RM, am I correct to assume that you mean to work up to a good, high quality single at around 80%-85% as is done in traditional Oly planning (unless you are having one of those ON days, which in that case means to go for it)?[/quote]
Actually you have a lot more leeway with the olympic lifts than with strength lifts because of the explosive nature of the lifts. Even a lift maximum is not a physical capacities maximum. Pierre Roy used to use the back squat to determine the effort of the muscular system during the olympic lifts. For example if you max back squat is 400lbs and your max power clean is 260lbs, then even a max effort on the power clean only represents a 65% muscular effort.
I do not agree 100% with this, but it has some validity in that you can go relatively higher on the olympic lifts than on strength lifts without any negative impact.
I use technique as a measuring stick… if there is a technical breakdown due to the load, it is too heavy. When you know how to do the lifts and are efficient, a technique breakdown is normally due to lack of strength in the key positions which tells me that even if you made the lift, the weight is too heavy for optimal training gains.
[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
[quote]Alcibiades wrote:
Thibs,
I have a question for you about how to regulate the intensity of the Olympic lifts in these layers.
My confusion stems from this: It is easy to know when you have reached your limit on a conventional lift because speed will diminish, you will not be able to explode, etc.
Now, there is no way to not explode on the Olympic lifts, so that method of regulation is not quite applicable. So, when you say to work up to 1RM, am I correct to assume that you mean to work up to a good, high quality single at around 80%-85% as is done in traditional Oly planning (unless you are having one of those ON days, which in that case means to go for it)?[/quote]
Actually you have a lot more leeway with the olympic lifts than with strength lifts because of the explosive nature of the lifts. Even a lift maximum is not a physical capacities maximum. Pierre Roy used to use the back squat to determine the effort of the muscular system during the olympic lifts. For example if you max back squat is 400lbs and your max power clean is 260lbs, then even a max effort on the power clean only represents a 65% muscular effort.
I do not agree 100% with this, but it has some validity in that you can go relatively higher on the olympic lifts than on strength lifts without any negative impact.
I use technique as a measuring stick… if there is a technical breakdown due to the load, it is too heavy. When you know how to do the lifts and are efficient, a technique breakdown is normally due to lack of strength in the key positions which tells me that even if you made the lift, the weight is too heavy for optimal training gains.[/quote]
Thanks a lot Thibs.
HI CT
Im thinking about starting the 10 day strength cycle but was wondering if complexs could be added to the end of these sessions or would that be too much work load? I am a former compeittve Olympic lifter but have not compete in 3 years and are returning from injury (spondylolisthesis). I want to increase my opverall strength, but also start to develop my power snatch and clean again (no more squat snatch). I was wondering if it was possibel to intergrate the Olympic lifts into the 10 day strength cycle and how?
Any advic would be greatly appreciated.
regards
CT-
I use a variation of your Snatch Complex (SG deadlift, SGHP, Power Snatch, Back Squat, BTN Push Press) on my SGHP Days, and the Canadian Bear on Pressing Days.
What would be a good complex to use on Back Squat days? You have listed the Snatch Complex as a good one but I am already using it. Is it okay to use it on two different days? Should I use The Bear? Or Klokov? (DL, Power Clean, Front Squat, Push Press, Jerk)