Olympic Lifting with Chains?

[quote]taylor_1989 wrote:

[quote]SKELAC wrote:

[quote]taylor_1989 wrote:
This may sound like a stupid question, but why not train oly lift with chains? I have to be honest I only really know about chains from the training lab. As I understand they are use to increase speed? So I was thinking wouldn’t it be beneficial to use with oly lift if you reached a plateau? [/quote]

Well,have a go with it,make video and post it here.

why not try one-legged Oly lifts? ;))[/quote]

I was thinking of making a vid, but by the comments of people saying they cause you to get smashed in the face, I would rather not risk it :). I was thinking of the one legged snatch, dose it have any improvements on the snatch in general or does it have a specific e.g speed, power ect?
[/quote]

I believe he was being sarcastic.

Hey Taylor, got your PM but since I posted in here before I realized that my PM’s are screwy and I can only receive PM’s (can’t send/reply). If you want to PM me an email address, then I’d be glad to send you something more detailed about the HFS that way though.

[quote]bigmac73nh wrote:
Hey Taylor, got your PM but since I posted in here before I realized that my PM’s are screwy and I can only receive PM’s (can’t send/reply). If you want to PM me an email address, then I’d be glad to send you something more detailed about the HFS that way though.[/quote]

Kl Kl no worries, I will PM you my e-mail.

[quote]swolarbear wrote:
To stir the pot in the other direction…I have seen at least one successful thrower (who was incredibly strong, for what its worth) that snatched against bands. I haven’t tried it, nor do I plan on it…but it would seem for general power production purposes and not lifting to increase your snatch/clean, you would have to generate a fuckload of bar speed to “out-run” the band tension. If someone wants to try, I’d be interested to hear about it[/quote]

I saw a vid on you tube with a bloke doing clean, here is the vid:

He also has an explanation to his method…

" In this test, three repetitions were performed with 185lbs plus band tension provided by orange “Micro-Mini” bands (15-20lbs of tension) and there was a 2-minute rest and then three repetitions were performed with just 185lbs and no band tension. I picked power cleans from high block since they are a very short duration lift and are very explosive, band tension is different since it pulls you in the direction of where the band is anchored so doing full lifts can be very difficult.

As expected, barbell acceleration and velocity had higher peaks when there was no band tension. The band tension adds additional force to the barbell that must be overcome by the lifter to make the lift. An interesting aspect of the acceleration is that with band tension, the acceleration of the barbell peaks again at the same time as velocity peaks. Without band tension, there is no peak in this area. It is interesting because acceleration of the barbell is directly related with the force applied to the barbell.

The clean with the bands only went up 72cm and without band tension the height was 77cm, keep in mind the maximum velocity difference was only 0.07m/s so the difference in height should only be 1.8cm but in reality it is 5cm because of the band tension. With the bands, the lift lasted 0.5839s. When the bands were removed, the lift lasted 0.5339s.

The duration from the start of the lift to the maximum velocity is 0.3003s for the banded, and 0.2669s for the lift without banded. Duration of the lift from maximum velocity to receiving bar is 0.3670s for bands, 0.2670s without bands. A particularly interesting area in the acceleration graph is from 0.2002s - 0.3336s since the difference in the acceleration is equal. Therefore it becomes possible to determine the average of this difference and it tells you how much acceleration the bands put on the barbell.

After some simple math the difference is 3m/s^2 (which also happens to be the difference in maximum accelerations of both), so the apparent downward acceleration of the barbell with band tension is around -12.81m/s^2 compared to the regular downward acceleration of gravity, -9.81m/s^2. By taking into account the apparent downward acceleration of the bar and band tension, one can compare the force output of either lift.

Zero acceleration equals zero force for F=ma, so for a regular barbell -9.81m/s^2 means that the barbell is falling at freefall at -100% of force, so 9.81m/s^2 would be 100% force. With the bands we have determined free fall speed to be about -12.81m/s^2 and 100% force to be 12.81m/s^2. So we can now calculate the maximum force outputs of either lift with some interpolation.

For the lift with band tension, the maximum force applied to the barbell was 157.60% of barbell weight (weight = mass*gravity + band tension) and the maximum force applied to the barbell without bands was 236.16% of barbell weight. So the next test would be if doing a regular lift without bands generates that same amount of force, if it is less then 236.16% of barbell weight, then it would show that the training effect of using bands leads to a short-term increase in maximum force output. "

[quote]ape288 wrote:

[quote]swolarbear wrote:
To stir the pot in the other direction…I have seen at least one successful thrower (who was incredibly strong, for what its worth) that snatched against bands. I haven’t tried it, nor do I plan on it…but it would seem for general power production purposes and not lifting to increase your snatch/clean, you would have to generate a fuckload of bar speed to “out-run” the band tension. If someone wants to try, I’d be interested to hear about it[/quote]

sounds like a good way to lose control of the bar and have it smash down on the top of your head
[/quote]

So does snatching without bands if you don’t know what you’re doing. I’m pretty sure anyone that should even (maybe) be considering this as a lift would have enough bodily awareness for that to be a non-issue, especially considering that it would almost without question be a power version of the lift being done, not the full lifts.

[quote]swolarbear wrote:

[quote]ape288 wrote:

[quote]swolarbear wrote:
To stir the pot in the other direction…I have seen at least one successful thrower (who was incredibly strong, for what its worth) that snatched against bands. I haven’t tried it, nor do I plan on it…but it would seem for general power production purposes and not lifting to increase your snatch/clean, you would have to generate a fuckload of bar speed to “out-run” the band tension. If someone wants to try, I’d be interested to hear about it[/quote]

sounds like a good way to lose control of the bar and have it smash down on the top of your head
[/quote]

So does snatching without bands if you don’t know what you’re doing. I’m pretty sure anyone that should even (maybe) be considering this as a lift would have enough bodily awareness for that to be a non-issue, especially considering that it would almost without question be a power version of the lift being done, not the full lifts.[/quote]

As an ex-wrestler I like to think I have some decent bodily awareness and I’ve had a missed snatch hit me in the back of the head/neck, and another one scrape all the way down my back (the knurling left some good marks on that one). Those were max effort lifts though, where I was maybe pushing the envelope a little that day.

[quote]TheJonty wrote:

[quote]swolarbear wrote:

[quote]ape288 wrote:

[quote]swolarbear wrote:
To stir the pot in the other direction…I have seen at least one successful thrower (who was incredibly strong, for what its worth) that snatched against bands. I haven’t tried it, nor do I plan on it…but it would seem for general power production purposes and not lifting to increase your snatch/clean, you would have to generate a fuckload of bar speed to “out-run” the band tension. If someone wants to try, I’d be interested to hear about it[/quote]

sounds like a good way to lose control of the bar and have it smash down on the top of your head
[/quote]

So does snatching without bands if you don’t know what you’re doing. I’m pretty sure anyone that should even (maybe) be considering this as a lift would have enough bodily awareness for that to be a non-issue, especially considering that it would almost without question be a power version of the lift being done, not the full lifts.[/quote]

As an ex-wrestler I like to think I have some decent bodily awareness and I’ve had a missed snatch hit me in the back of the head/neck, and another one scrape all the way down my back (the knurling left some good marks on that one). Those were max effort lifts though, where I was maybe pushing the envelope a little that day.[/quote]

As an uncoordinated lifter pretty new to olympic lifts but stubborn about continuing to do them I’ve had some scary close calls myself…my main thought here is that there is a risk to all lifting, particularly the olympic lifts. Using common sense and good technique can keep you relatively safe, and I just don’t see submax lifts against bands being so much more dangerous than maximal traditional lifts so as to prevent you from attempting it. I also agree with what has been said along the lines of it being a poor idea for Oly lifters.

Imo it’d be dumb. You might get the bar over your head but not to the point of having your elbows locked (which could probably happen pretty easily seeing as how the band tension only increases), in which case the bands are gonna pull the bar right back down on top of your head. you might even complete the lift, get your elbows locked, and have your balance thrown off by the band tension. and it’s not the same as dodging a bar that’s just falling, like usual, it’s dodging a bar that’s being actively pulled down by the bands. there are tried and true ways of developing power, so I personally just don’t see the point.

[quote]ape288 wrote:
Imo it’d be dumb. You might get the bar over your head but not to the point of having your elbows locked (which could probably happen pretty easily seeing as how the band tension only increases), in which case the bands are gonna pull the bar right back down on top of your head. you might even complete the lift, get your elbows locked, and have your balance thrown off by the band tension. and it’s not the same as dodging a bar that’s just falling, like usual, it’s dodging a bar that’s being actively pulled down by the bands. there are tried and true ways of developing power, so I personally just don’t see the point. [/quote]

Would it be better to use bands/chains for assistance work for the oly lift? For example snatch high pulls, surely that would have some benefit to the overall oly lift.

[quote]taylor_1989 wrote:

[quote]ape288 wrote:
Imo it’d be dumb. You might get the bar over your head but not to the point of having your elbows locked (which could probably happen pretty easily seeing as how the band tension only increases), in which case the bands are gonna pull the bar right back down on top of your head. you might even complete the lift, get your elbows locked, and have your balance thrown off by the band tension. and it’s not the same as dodging a bar that’s just falling, like usual, it’s dodging a bar that’s being actively pulled down by the bands. there are tried and true ways of developing power, so I personally just don’t see the point. [/quote]

Would it be better to use bands/chains for assistance work for the oly lift? For example snatch high pulls, surely that would have some benefit to the overall oly lift.[/quote]
yah i hear you on that, i was wondering what would help and that makes a whole lot more sense then trying to use the bands for a full range lift. Considering the the tension multiplies exponentially the longer the stretch, what might add 40 lbs through half the range of motion could add 120 at the top. So it would make sense that it might aid in assistance movements.