Makes sense that Vibrams (arguably) wouldn’t count as ‘protective’ to meet 4.2.1
It all sounds a bit cryptic to me…
What do you guys think about my adding an extra wooden block heel to my current oly shoes (with respect to the rules)? It would be to provide ‘stability and a firm stance’ due to my lack of ankle dorsiflexion. I don’t see how it provides me with an an unfair advantage since it would disadvantage my pull, make holding the bar overhead a little tricker (hopefully not ‘unstable’), and most other people (with smaller heels) could still get their knees further forwards than me in the catch even with my additional heel lift.
[quote]alexus wrote:
Dreythe - your last post is basically what I did when I got my shoes. I did end up needing to return the first ones (half size smaller than usual). Figured that it was because I wear my chucks tighter than most. I don’t regret trying the smaller ones first, though, because otherwise I think I would be constantly wondering whether the current ones were a little too loose…[/quote]
I went over to footlocker today to try on a pair of size 9.0 chucks and they fit pretty much okay… so now I’m set on getting the size 9.0 do-wins. I realize my 9.5 chucks are a tiny loose anyway, and I should have had a 9.0. the only comfort issue with the size 9.0 chucks i tried on was a little pressure on my pinky toes. That should be alleviated since i hear rogue do-wins have a somewhat roomy toebox. I think I’m set now.
I actually can full clean easier barefooted than with my oly shoes on. In fact I really hate doing clean and jerks in my shoes. A lot of that is probably due to not wearing shoes to lift in usually. Snatching is a different ball game though as I am just not quite flexible enough in the heels to do hit a really rock bottom position easily. I would contend if you can’t full front squat or clean easily barefooted you have some flexibility issues to workout before you get into Olympic lifting too hard.
If I remember correctly, this guy was kind of decent at O Lifting.
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
I actually can full clean easier barefooted than with my oly shoes on. In fact I really hate doing clean and jerks in my shoes. A lot of that is probably due to not wearing shoes to lift in usually. Snatching is a different ball game though as I am just not quite flexible enough in the heels to do hit a really rock bottom position easily. I would contend if you can’t full front squat or clean easily barefooted you have some flexibility issues to workout before you get into Olympic lifting too hard.
If I remember correctly, this guy was kind of decent at O Lifting.[/quote]
“The above photo of David Rigert (one of the greatest lifters in weightlifting history) shows him “playing” around in the gym, snatching a 130 kg barbell in his bare feet, the day after winning the European Weightlifting Championships. Rigert wore Soviet style weightlifting shoes in the competition the day before.”
Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to “play around” with 130kg on a snatch at that body weight? Jesus that guy was impressive.
On the shoes point, I didn’t mean for the last post to come off as snarky as it did. Whatever you feel most comfortable lifting in is what you should lift in period. I was only trying to defend the notion of not wearing shoes in certain circumstances if THAT feels better for you than shoes. Assuming you had adequate flexibility I just don’t see shoes as a necessity for lifting big weights. But I am no where close to an elite level lifter so shit might change when you are in the 400 lb. stage on a C J or Snatch.
To answer the OP’s original question, I wear a true 9.5 shoe and I ordered the Rogue Do-Wins in 9.0. They fit perfectly and they add a great deal of confidence catching a snatch or full squat clean. If you go with the 9.0 and they aren’t the right size, Rogue will swap them out no problem. I’ve been using mine pretty heavily for the past 2-3 months and I couldn’t be happier with them. Good shoe for the price.
Vibrams suck so damn bad for weightlifting that when I do Pendlay seminars or USAW certification seminars and I see a guy or girl wearing vibrams I ask them to take them off and put their “street shoes” back on.
Glenn- any particular reason you feel they suck so bad (I presume this applies to being completely barefooted as well)? Is it just that most people have no where near the flexibility to achieve a deep squat/catch position without them? I am just not sure what would in this instance make street shoes a better choice than no shoes/minimalist shoes?
On a similar note, assuming someone did have the requisite flexibility to easily hit a deep catch position on both the CJ and snatch without shoes, would you still recommend shoes and why (particularly if the athlete felt more comfortable without O-Shoes)?
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
Glenn- any particular reason you feel they suck so bad (I presume this applies to being completely barefooted as well)? Is it just that most people have no where near the flexibility to achieve a deep squat/catch position without them? I am just not sure what would in this instance make street shoes a better choice than no shoes/minimalist shoes?
On a similar note, assuming someone did have the requisite flexibility to easily hit a deep catch position on both the CJ and snatch without shoes, would you still recommend shoes and why (particularly if the athlete felt more comfortable without O-Shoes)? [/quote]
I see 2 reasons why street shoes would be better. I doesn’t have to do with flexibility IMO.
It has a heel - it is much easier to get, and stay, into the right posture for the clean and snatch positions with a heel lift.
Street shoes are more stable because of the flat sole - when you hit a good clean or snatch and land in the squat position, a lot of force is applied right through your heels, and then all you have to do is squat up from there. The same can’t be said barefoot because the back of your foot is skinny, curved, and generally unstable, and you won’t be able to “settle in” to that squat position. This is not something I can easily explain but it is something you notice when you do the lift correctly.
This video can explain it better, look at the heel of his shoes when he hits that OH squat position.
PB- The first point I would disagree as being precisely a flexibility issue. I can drop into a full clean position, ass inches from the floor, in bare feet with little issue. Snatch position as I mentioned previously is a different ball game. Still though it seem that is only because I have had injuries in the past that limit my current ankle flexibility. Emphasis on seem though, I presume it is possible very few people could physiologically ever achieve that position without shoes.
The second point might have some merit to it, but surely street shoes are infinitely more wobbly/squishy/unstable compared to bare feet? Again, I freely admit I am no elite level weightlifter, but I have clean and jerked over 300 pounds, front squatted ATG well over 400lb. and have high bar sqautted ATG over 500lb. without shoes and felt much more stable doing that than with shoes on. In fact the reason I started lifting barefooted is because it felt more stable and comfortable for me compared to even thin soled street shoes. Force must be transferred via the foot regardless of shoe, so adding an intermediary material, even one as incompressible as a weightlifting shoe, surely cannot IMPROVE the force transfer to the ground. Perhaps the width of the bottom does play a factor, but I have never had an issue, but again the game might change at truly impressive weights and I have simply never experienced this.
I have a pair of O Shoes I actually bought from Glenn (the old blue suede kind) and it does really help with my snatching, but I much prefer to do all my other lifts without them on. I have never lifted in something like Chucks though so maybe ankle support would provide some benefit I can’t comment on that either.
I am not trying to knock the idea of wearing shoes by any means but I don’t see what is inherently superior about wearing shoes versus going barefoot presuming you can hit all the needed catch positions without them on.
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
PB- The first point I would disagree as being precisely a flexibility issue. I can drop into a full clean position, ass inches from the floor, in bare feet with little issue. Snatch position as I mentioned previously is a different ball game. Still though it seem that is only because I have had injuries in the past that limit my current ankle flexibility. Emphasis on seem though, I presume it is possible very few people could physiologically ever achieve that position without shoes.
The second point might have some merit to it, but surely street shoes are infinitely more wobbly/squishy/unstable compared to bare feet? Again, I freely admit I am no elite level weightlifter, but I have clean and jerked over 300 pounds, front squatted ATG well over 400lb. and have high bar sqautted ATG over 500lb. without shoes and felt much more stable doing that than with shoes on. In fact the reason I started lifting barefooted is because it felt more stable and comfortable for me compared to even thin soled street shoes. Force must be transferred via the foot regardless of shoe, so adding an intermediary material, even one as incompressible as a weightlifting shoe, surely cannot IMPROVE the force transfer to the ground. Perhaps the width of the bottom does play a factor, but I have never had an issue, but again the game might change at truly impressive weights and I have simply never experienced this.
I have a pair of O Shoes I actually bought from Glenn (the old blue suede kind) and it does really help with my snatching, but I much prefer to do all my other lifts without them on. I have never lifted in something like Chucks though so maybe ankle support would provide some benefit I can’t comment on that either.
I am not trying to knock the idea of wearing shoes by any means but I don’t see what is inherently superior about wearing shoes versus going barefoot presuming you can hit all the needed catch positions without them on.[/quote]
Re: Chucks: It doesnt. no “support” in the ankle. just looks totes bad ass.
Re: wearing shoes: If you want to compete and excel in the classic lifts [ie.snatch and Clean and Jerk] then use OL shoes. If not, wear whatever shoes you think are the best for you. I use WLing shoes [polish suede ones] For all my lifting at almost all times. Yet I Rx Chucks or some other semi flat sole [saucony A4, Nike Free [blegh] or inov8 [super hot scope them for track shoes if you want]] .
Not trying to be a dick here, but WHY do you have to wear Oly shoes to be competitive? I am not saying this is not the case, but I would like to know why it is or at least why people suppose it is. Flexibility? Stability? What is it? I ask this because I have only noticed an issue with snatch flexibility and I can still do a passable job of snatching without shoes and I have serious scar tissue in both ankles/achilles from an old accident. I am sure someone who trained for this would not find this to be an issue. I have never had an issue with stability on any lift I have performed barefooted.
I am curious to get Glenn’s take on why he feels being barefoot (or lifting in vibrams more precisely) sucks so bad. I just cannot think of a reason why lifting barefoot is inherently disadvantaged to lifting with weightlifting shoes.
Now, I’m not Glenn, but best I can figure it, regardless of whether or not you are flexible enough to hit the correct positions barefoot, using weightlifting shoes with an elevated heel will provide you a mechanical advantage in terms of hitting the positions which will translate to more weight on the bar. And as far as shoes go, they are as stable as it gets (I won’t argue whether or not they’re more/less stable than bare feet because I’ve never olifted in bare feet).
As far as being more comfortable in bare feet, well, for a while I was more comfortable not using a hook grip, but switching to a hook grip has allowed me to lift more weight, I believe (or at least my grip has never been an issue). Comfort doesn’t necessariliy have a whole lot to do with performing at a high level. If you are not training to compete in the olifts (and thus not training solely to snatch and clean and jerk as much as possible) then fine, do what is comfortable, but that description does not fit all of us in this forum and it most certainly does not fit Glenn and the athletes he trains.
That’s a good point Jonty, it gives you a mechanical advantage, that’s what I meant by #1 - the heel lift has nothing to do with flexibility/mobility of the ankles, but it allows you to sit back into the hips more and keep the chest upright. These small changes in technique/position make a big difference when it comes to heavy weights.
Now THAT is an answer with some substance. I can see the uprightness factor as being a major advantage for the heel elevation and allowing you to move more weight with less forward lean which undoubtedly becomes much more important when you are catching 500lbs. on your chest. By comfort I simply meant more stable, but agreed even if it feels awkward (as hook gripping does at first) it still might be advantageous to do so.
[quote]kilpaba wrote:
Now THAT is an answer with some substance. I can see the uprightness factor as being a major advantage for the heel elevation and allowing you to move more weight with less forward lean which undoubtedly becomes much more important when you are catching 500lbs. on your chest. By comfort I simply meant more stable, but agreed even if it feels awkward (as hook gripping does at first) it still might be advantageous to do so. [/quote]
My friend, let me see a video of you clean and jerking 300, in bare feet, and I will point out to you how and why you would do it better in good shoes. I am not trying to be an ass, but, you are obviously a strong guy and often strong athletic guys can do things that “shouldnt” be possible… what you dont realize is that you would do even better if you improved a few things.
