Oldest Human-Linked Skeleton Found

Badunk · October 6, 2009, 1:42pm

Surely, though, the default position for ANYTHING is that it doesn’t exist until proven otherwise?

I mean, do green elephants with 6 legs exist? Do faeries and fire-breathing dragons exist? Do we take the position that “green elephants with 6 legs haven’t been disproven, therefore I am open to the notion that they might exist”? Surely extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof? And there aren’t many more extraordinary claims than a God, who is three Gods in one, created the universe in a week, populated the planet using two people that he created from dust and ribs, got annoyed that it wasn’t working out as he’d planned (which, in itself, is strange for a ‘perfect’ being), impregnated a virgin (who happened to be married, thus committing one of his own sins- adultery), let his own ‘son’ be killed in a horrific manner (even though he is his son as well…sort of), brought him back from the dead, and is now waiting to judge everyone for not living up to his own high standards of conduct.

If you don’t believe in that, or slight variations of it, you are an atheist. If you believe that the universe and everything in it is part of one giant organism and that everyone and everything in it is linked in some way, you are a pantheist. If you believe in the God of the Torah, Bible, Koran, etc, you are a theist. I just don’t get what agnostics are and why they don’t just pick one of the only 3 options that I can see.

And, as you said, this isn’t to attack you, just discussing. Agnostics fascinate me more than theists.

Mr_Anderson · October 6, 2009, 3:32pm

[quote]Badunk wrote:
Surely, though, the default position for ANYTHING is that it doesn’t exist until proven otherwise?

I mean, do green elephants with 6 legs exist? Do faeries and fire-breathing dragons exist? Do we take the position that “green elephants with 6 legs haven’t been disproven, therefore I am open to the notion that they might exist”? Surely extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof? And there aren’t many more extraordinary claims than a God, who is three Gods in one, created the universe in a week, populated the planet using two people that he created from dust and ribs, got annoyed that it wasn’t working out as he’d planned (which, in itself, is strange for a ‘perfect’ being), impregnated a virgin (who happened to be married, thus committing one of his own sins- adultery), let his own ‘son’ be killed in a horrific manner (even though he is his son as well…sort of), brought him back from the dead, and is now waiting to judge everyone for not living up to his own high standards of conduct.

If you don’t believe in that, or slight variations of it, you are an atheist. If you believe that the universe and everything in it is part of one giant organism and that everyone and everything in it is linked in some way, you are a pantheist. If you believe in the God of the Torah, Bible, Koran, etc, you are a theist. I just don’t get what agnostics are and why they don’t just pick one of the only 3 options that I can see.

And, as you said, this isn’t to attack you, just discussing. Agnostics fascinate me more than theists. [/quote]

I am fine with discussion, I just see too many people on this and other boards take things personally and get bent out of shape for no reason.

My understanding of the definition of an Atheist is that they KNOW there is no god. Just as a theist would believe that they KNOW there is a god. So therefore…

I am an Agnostic and not an Atheist because I find the Atheist position to be almost as arrogant as the theist position. (Not to call you arrogant, I am using this referring to the general population) No, I do not believe in the creation story at all. That we can fully agree on. However, to say that there is, unequivocally and without a doubt, no supernatural being (not necessarily the “god” everyone else believes in) is a position I do not take because I feel that none of us KNOW if that is correct. I, instead, take the stance that there might be or might not be and that if there is, I find every religion on the planet to be wrong, IMO.

Badunk · October 6, 2009, 5:58pm

If God = ANYTHING, then, yeah, God could exist. But the God that human beings speak of is an eternal, conscious being who created everything. After 2000 years or so of worshipping this God, though, there isn’t a single shred of evidence that supports his existence. Nothing. Zip. Nada.

Are you, then, a magical mutant shit monster agnostic? Are you a tunnelling purple pumpkin of doom agnostic? Are you a squelchy octopus mandroid agnostic? Because, I mean, if you are agnostic about this supernatural being you speak of, that you know nothing about, then you are agnostic to just about anything our imaginations can cook up.

Should you dismiss the belief that a magical mutant shit monster exists? Of course you should, because I just made it up and it is ludicrous. Similarly with the pumpkin of doom and the octopus mandroid. NON-EXISTENCE is the default position for ANYTHING. And EXTRAORDINARY claims require EXTRAORDINARY evidence. If I told you that I was sitting on a chair, typing this out, would you believe me? Yes, you probably would. It doesn’t stretch the imagination to believe that I am sat down and using a keyboard, because you know that this is how most people write on forums. However, if I told you that the chair I was sat on could fly and the keyboard can talk, would you believe me?

Do you see what I’m getting at?

BackInAction · October 6, 2009, 3:59pm

[quote]Mr Anderson wrote:
I am an Agnostic and not an Atheist because I find the Atheist position to be almost as arrogant as the theist position. (Not to call you arrogant, I am using this referring to the general population) No, I do not believe in the creation story at all. That we can fully agree on. However, to say that there is, unequivocally and without a doubt, no supernatural being (not necessarily the “god” everyone else believes in) is a position I do not take because I feel that none of us KNOW if that is correct. I, instead, take the stance that there might be or might not be and that if there is, I find every religion on the planet to be wrong, IMO. [/quote]

This is exactly what I believe as well. I actually went to lunch today with a co-worker and discussed religion and went into detail on how I think atheists are ignorant as well because THEY KNOW what happened.

Agnostics simply say “I don’t know” when asked whether God exists or not. After all, how could you prove the existence/non-existence of something like that unless we have proof one way or the other (no evidence does not rule out existence).

BackInAction · October 6, 2009, 8:04pm

[quote]Badunk wrote:
If God = ANYTHING, then, yeah, God could exist. But the God that human beings speak of is an eternal, conscious being who created everything. After 2000 years or so of worshipping this God, though, there isn’t a single shred of evidence that supports his existence. Nothing. Zip. Nada.

Are you, then, a magical mutant shit monster agnostic? Are you a tunnelling purple pumpkin of doom agnostic? Are you a squelchy octopus mandroid agnostic? Because, I mean, if you are agnostic about this supernatural being you speak of, that you know nothing about, then you are agnostic to just about anything our imaginations can cook up.

Should you dismiss the belief that a magical mutant shit monster exists? Of course you should, because I just made it up and it is ludicrous. Similarly with the pumpkin of doom and the octopus mandroid. NON-EXISTENCE is the default position for ANYTHING. And EXTRAORDINARY claims require EXTRAORDINARY evidence. If I told you that I was sitting on a chair, typing this out, would you believe me? Yes, you probably would. It doesn’t stretch the imagination to believe that I am sat down and using a keyboard, because you know that this is how most people write on forums. However, if I told you that the chair I was sat on could fly and the keyboard can talk, would you believe me?

Do you see what I’m getting at?
[/quote]

I totally understand your point, Badunk. But here’s the thing, there are lots of things people couldn’t conceive of which are starting to popup (especially stuff we cannot see). Examples include dark matter and black holes.

Just because something cannot be proven does not mean it doesn’t exists. With time, they could be proven or disproven completely.

Mr_Anderson · October 6, 2009, 8:13pm

[quote]Badunk wrote:
If God = ANYTHING, then, yeah, God could exist. But the God that human beings speak of is an eternal, conscious being who created everything. After 2000 years or so of worshipping this God, though, there isn’t a single shred of evidence that supports his existence. Nothing. Zip. Nada.

Are you, then, a magical mutant shit monster agnostic? Are you a tunnelling purple pumpkin of doom agnostic? Are you a squelchy octopus mandroid agnostic? Because, I mean, if you are agnostic about this supernatural being you speak of, that you know nothing about, then you are agnostic to just about anything our imaginations can cook up.

Should you dismiss the belief that a magical mutant shit monster exists? Of course you should, because I just made it up and it is ludicrous. Similarly with the pumpkin of doom and the octopus mandroid. NON-EXISTENCE is the default position for ANYTHING. And EXTRAORDINARY claims require EXTRAORDINARY evidence. If I told you that I was sitting on a chair, typing this out, would you believe me? Yes, you probably would. It doesn’t stretch the imagination to believe that I am sat down and using a keyboard, because you know that this is how most people write on forums. However, if I told you that the chair I was sat on could fly and the keyboard can talk, would you believe me?

Do you see what I’m getting at?
[/quote]

In referring to the first part of your post… Yes I am saying that “god” could be anything, any sort of supernatural being. Do I believe that this “god” could possibly be what most believe? I highly doubt that, but again I do not KNOW. I believe that if there is a “god” that I will not be punished because I used science/reason/knowledge to guide my life instead of a “belief” in him and people. That is another problem I have with religion is that everyone wants to take it so literally when there is sooo much human error over the past year, let alone the past 2000.

I realize what you are getting at about there needs to be some substantial proof of an extraordinary claim such as a “god.” While I would tend to agree, I also do not believe that I should make such claims as KNOWING there is no “god.” Hence, I take the stance of being an Agnostic and the claim of “I don’t know” in answering so many questions regarding any sort of “god.”

Makavali · October 6, 2009, 8:14pm

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
This is exactly what I believe as well. I actually went to lunch today with a co-worker and discussed religion and went into detail on how I think atheists are ignorant as well because THEY KNOW what happened.

Agnostics simply say “I don’t know” when asked whether God exists or not. After all, how could you prove the existence/non-existence of something like that unless we have proof one way or the other (no evidence does not rule out existence).[/quote]

If we’re playing it like that, then Dawkins is an agnostic too, and so am I. The indication based on available knowledge is that there is a strong possibility of no God.

Mr_Anderson · October 6, 2009, 8:18pm

[quote]BackInAction wrote:
Mr Anderson wrote:
I am an Agnostic and not an Atheist because I find the Atheist position to be almost as arrogant as the theist position. (Not to call you arrogant, I am using this referring to the general population) No, I do not believe in the creation story at all. That we can fully agree on. However, to say that there is, unequivocally and without a doubt, no supernatural being (not necessarily the “god” everyone else believes in) is a position I do not take because I feel that none of us KNOW if that is correct. I, instead, take the stance that there might be or might not be and that if there is, I find every religion on the planet to be wrong, IMO.

This is exactly what I believe as well. I actually went to lunch today with a co-worker and discussed religion and went into detail on how I think atheists are ignorant as well because THEY KNOW what happened.

Agnostics simply say “I don’t know” when asked whether God exists or not. After all, how could you prove the existence/non-existence of something like that unless we have proof one way or the other (no evidence does not rule out existence).[/quote]

“I don’t know” is the number one answer I give when discussing god and religion with people (which is rare because not many people know of my stance because of the social “norms” where I live) It fits almost everything because I honestly don’t know the answers, and neither do the other individuals, I just admit it.

Mr_Anderson · October 6, 2009, 8:22pm

[quote]Makavali wrote:
BackInAction wrote:
This is exactly what I believe as well. I actually went to lunch today with a co-worker and discussed religion and went into detail on how I think atheists are ignorant as well because THEY KNOW what happened.

Agnostics simply say “I don’t know” when asked whether God exists or not. After all, how could you prove the existence/non-existence of something like that unless we have proof one way or the other (no evidence does not rule out existence).

If we’re playing it like that, then Dawkins is an agnostic too, and so am I. The indication based on available knowledge is that there is a strong possibility of no God.[/quote]

Am I completely wrong or isn’t the definition of an Agnostic as someone who does not “know” if there is a god? This is why I claim to be Agnostic because I do not “know.”

Definitions can be tricky, but I agree with the claim the based on the available knowledge that there is a strong possibility of no god. Place me in whatever category accordingly.

Makavali · October 6, 2009, 8:27pm

[quote]Mr Anderson wrote:
Am I completely wrong or isn’t the definition of an Agnostic as someone who does not “know” if there is a god? This is why I claim to be Agnostic because I do not “know.”

Definitions can be tricky, but I agree with the claim the based on the available knowledge that there is a strong possibility of no god. Place me in whatever category accordingly.[/quote]

I will not. You are a person, not a category. We use them for convenience, but they can be misused at times.

I live my life as if there is no God, simply for the fact that I no evidence for his/her/its existence.

Jason_Lee · October 6, 2009, 10:10pm

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Mr Anderson wrote:
Am I completely wrong or isn’t the definition of an Agnostic as someone who does not “know” if there is a god? This is why I claim to be Agnostic because I do not “know.”

Definitions can be tricky, but I agree with the claim the based on the available knowledge that there is a strong possibility of no god. Place me in whatever category accordingly.

I will not. You are a person, not a category. We use them for convenience, but they can be misused at times.

I live my life as if there is no God, simply for the fact that I no evidence for his/her/its existence.[/quote]

This is interesting to me, I live my life as if there is a god, whether there is one or not is yet to be proven. But if I didn’t believe in eternal happiness/damnation I would be a very scary individual. My belief is what stops me from doing many things. I don’t fear our prison system or other people, but hell on the other hand. With an imagination like mine, that is a place to fear.

kylec72 · October 6, 2009, 10:50pm

[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
This is interesting to me, I live my life as if there is a god, whether there is one or not is yet to be proven. But if I didn’t believe in eternal happiness/damnation I would be a very scary individual. My belief is what stops me from doing many things. I don’t fear our prison system or other people, but hell on the other hand. With an imagination like mine, that is a place to fear. [/quote]

God is not synonymous with morality, or rather morality is not limited to theism.

Makavali · October 6, 2009, 11:08pm

[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
This is interesting to me, I live my life as if there is a god, whether there is one or not is yet to be proven. But if I didn’t believe in eternal happiness/damnation I would be a very scary individual. My belief is what stops me from doing many things. I don’t fear our prison system or other people, but hell on the other hand. With an imagination like mine, that is a place to fear. [/quote]

I don’t believe in hell, yet I don’t kill or rape. Compassion is gift you have yet to receive?

angry_chicken · October 6, 2009, 11:27pm

[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Mr Anderson wrote:
Am I completely wrong or isn’t the definition of an Agnostic as someone who does not “know” if there is a god? This is why I claim to be Agnostic because I do not “know.”

Definitions can be tricky, but I agree with the claim the based on the available knowledge that there is a strong possibility of no god. Place me in whatever category accordingly.

I will not. You are a person, not a category. We use them for convenience, but they can be misused at times.

I live my life as if there is no God, simply for the fact that I no evidence for his/her/its existence.

This is interesting to me, I live my life as if there is a god, whether there is one or not is yet to be proven. But if I didn’t believe in eternal happiness/damnation I would be a very scary individual. My belief is what stops me from doing many things. I don’t fear our prison system or other people, but hell on the other hand. With an imagination like mine, that is a place to fear. [/quote]

Which is why we have religion. Nothing like the fear of eternal damnation to keep a population of free thinking, self-centered humans in line!

We all have our dark sides. Sometimes we act on it, sometimes we don’t. We will confabulate whatever we need to in order to tame the awesome power that is each individual’s birthright.

We are all both beautiful AND terrible at the same time. Heaven and Hell are states of MIND.

Mind does NOT = GOD. (or does it?)

The Bible (and the Koran, the Talmud, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Lotus Sutra, the Analects, Dianetics, the Tao de Ching, etc…) was written by MAN. Religion is bullshit.

It’s the biggest CON in history.

Jason_Lee · October 6, 2009, 11:30pm

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
This is interesting to me, I live my life as if there is a god, whether there is one or not is yet to be proven. But if I didn’t believe in eternal happiness/damnation I would be a very scary individual. My belief is what stops me from doing many things. I don’t fear our prison system or other people, but hell on the other hand. With an imagination like mine, that is a place to fear.

I don’t believe in hell, yet I don’t kill or rape. Compassion is gift you have yet to receive?[/quote]

Don’t get me wrong, I’m actually a good person, but is that because of what I was taught about religion as a child or is that who I would have become without any form of religion? I don’t know. You don’t have to believe in hell to know the difference between right and wrong, but if you have no mortal fear then you have nothing to lose. You can act on every impulse you have with impunity.

Makavali · October 6, 2009, 11:33pm

[quote]kylec72 wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
This is interesting to me, I live my life as if there is a god, whether there is one or not is yet to be proven. But if I didn’t believe in eternal happiness/damnation I would be a very scary individual. My belief is what stops me from doing many things. I don’t fear our prison system or other people, but hell on the other hand. With an imagination like mine, that is a place to fear.

God is not synonymous with morality, or rather morality is not limited to theism.[/quote]

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Why people think morals come from him are beyond me.

Jason_Lee · October 6, 2009, 11:35pm

[quote]kylec72 wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
This is interesting to me, I live my life as if there is a god, whether there is one or not is yet to be proven. But if I didn’t believe in eternal happiness/damnation I would be a very scary individual. My belief is what stops me from doing many things. I don’t fear our prison system or other people, but hell on the other hand. With an imagination like mine, that is a place to fear.

God is not synonymous with morality, or rather morality is not limited to theism.[/quote]

I understand this and did not mean to imply that without religion there is no morality. I’m trying to say if there are no consequences for your actions then we can do whatever we want. To me jail or prison isn’t a punishment I’m afraid of. If it’s enough to deter others thats great, I just don’t see it as something to fear.

Jason_Lee · October 6, 2009, 11:41pm

[quote]Makavali wrote:
kylec72 wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
This is interesting to me, I live my life as if there is a god, whether there is one or not is yet to be proven. But if I didn’t believe in eternal happiness/damnation I would be a very scary individual. My belief is what stops me from doing many things. I don’t fear our prison system or other people, but hell on the other hand. With an imagination like mine, that is a place to fear.

God is not synonymous with morality, or rather morality is not limited to theism.

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

Why people think morals come from him are beyond me.[/quote]

I think that was taken a little out of context, plus you have to remember the bible was written by man and then translated many times. The overall teachings of most religions is to be good to your fellow man. Times have changed a lot since it was written. People were treated differently back then. Just look at racism and homosexuality. Look how peoples views have changed on that within the last 30 years.

Makavali · October 6, 2009, 8:21pm

[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
This is interesting to me, I live my life as if there is a god, whether there is one or not is yet to be proven. But if I didn’t believe in eternal happiness/damnation I would be a very scary individual. My belief is what stops me from doing many things. I don’t fear our prison system or other people, but hell on the other hand. With an imagination like mine, that is a place to fear.

I don’t believe in hell, yet I don’t kill or rape. Compassion is gift you have yet to receive?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m actually a good person, but is that because of what I was taught about religion as a child or is that who I would have become without any form of religion? I don’t know. You don’t have to believe in hell to know the difference between right and wrong, but if you have no mortal fear then you have nothing to lose. You can act on every impulse you have with impunity. [/quote]

I wasn’t raised in a Christian household. My mother, who is a devout Hindu wanted to raise me as such, but my father, who we can safely refer to as an apatheist would have none of that. I did consider myself Hindu at one stage, but I’ve shifted from that to atheism (say level 6.5 on the God Delusion scale).

1.00: Strong theist. 100 percent possibility of God. In the words of C.G. Jung, ‘I do not believe, I know.’

2.00: Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto theist. 'I cannot know for certain, but I strongly believe in God and live my life on the assumption that he is there

3.00: Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism. ‘I am very uncertain, but I am inclined to believe in God.’

4.00: Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic. ‘God’s existence and non-existence are exactly equiprobable.’

5.00: Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism. ‘I don’t know whether God exists but I’m inclined to be sceptical.’

6.00: Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist. ‘I cannot know for certain but I think God is very improbable, and I live my life on the assumption that he is not there.’

7:00: Strong atheist. ‘I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung ‘knows’ there is one.’

Jason_Lee · October 7, 2009, 12:44am

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Jason Lee wrote:
This is interesting to me, I live my life as if there is a god, whether there is one or not is yet to be proven. But if I didn’t believe in eternal happiness/damnation I would be a very scary individual. My belief is what stops me from doing many things. I don’t fear our prison system or other people, but hell on the other hand. With an imagination like mine, that is a place to fear.