Old Tyme Strength

Bigger Stronger Leaner Powerlifting & Strength Sports
21

[quote]RickJames wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
Most of the big raw benchers are still built pretty much like the big raw benchers of the past and have a regular ROM. A big arch is more conducive to a shirted bench than a flat bench. Mendy’s 715 was fairly traditional from that standpoint, and I think he weighed a little bit less than Kaz. The pause on the 715 was legitimate (however one of his 700lb benches had a non-existant pause).

I am not disrespecting Kaz at all, as he is an all-time great, but please don’t disrespect those that lift today based on assumptions and stereotypes. Not to mention that 90% of our top guys never lift raw, so we don’t even know what they are capable of, but of the few that do, there are some freaks.

The raw (belt only) deadlift has also gone up…Bolton pulled his original 932 WR in just a belt and a singlet, and I think Frank pulled his 931 the same way, but I could be wrong about that. I imagine Magnusson could do similar weights in just a belt.
[/quote]

No disrespect intended here. There are way more strong guys today. I don’t have a problem with shirts and suits, or with improving form, and I’m sure a big arch 600 pound presser could still do 500+ for reps with a slight arch only. I think its okay to wonder what Kazmaier might have done though. 661 with his style, and totally unequipped, and he didn’t do lockout work (just closegrips), who knows? Nobody imagined an 800 bench at the time. And also, I’ve seen pictures of him at the bottom position of a 900+ pound squat and he is basically doing an olympic style squat.
With equipment, one thing is for sure, we will never see that again.

22
  • Pre-steroid -
    John Y. Smith born april 22, 1866.

Stats:
height: 5’6.5"
weight: 160-170lbs

Achievements:
Weightlifting champion (at age 60, yes 60, won “strongest man in new england” against all competitors in open competition, 1926)
Right Hand Deadlift 450lbs (thats one hand)
Bent Press 275.5lbs (bent pressed 200+lbs at 50 years old, 185lbs at 60)
DB Press 225lbs total (each est. 112.5lbs)

"… [John Y] Smith’s hands looked like iron claws. Years of one handed deadlifting with thick handled barbells had so thickened Smith’s finger tendons in the palm of his hand that those same tendons stood out like the webbing on a duck’s feet… " - mike brown

23

306×524 26.8 KB

  • Pre-steroid -
    Eugene Sandow born 1867

height: 5’9 1/4"
weight: 202 lbs.
neck: 18"
chest: 48"
biceps: 18 1/2"
forearm: 16 1/2"
wrist: 7 1/2"
waist: 30"
hips: 42"
thigh: 26"
knee: 14"
calf: 18"
ankle: 8 1/2"

24

  • Pre-steroid -
    Arthur Saxon

bent press: 370 lbs
snatch: 195 lbs
military press: 252 lbs

25

[quote]sensless wrote:
We don’t have strong backs, plain and simple. People think picking up heavy stuff will cause you to hurt yourself, so they don’t do it. Talk to most people that “work out” and they don’t bother to squat consistently and they don’t even know what a deadlift is. Not many people train their grip either, and that is essential. Farmboys rarely need grip training because their hands are strong from the work they did growing up, city boys need to train their grip. Makes a huge difference to do these three things.

Natural foods always beat supplements. People seem to consume “supplements” as foods instead of comprehending the name of what they are taking. They are called “SUPPLEMENTS”, as in take them in addition to actual food not in lieu of it.

Regards,

Sensless[/quote]

good post…

26

[quote]ZEB wrote:
If you look at how the very early guys trained, it was three times per week, and full body!

That might have something to do with their ability.[/quote]

werd!

27

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
RickJames wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
Most of the big raw benchers are still built pretty much like the big raw benchers of the past and have a regular ROM. A big arch is more conducive to a shirted bench than a flat bench. Mendy’s 715 was fairly traditional from that standpoint, and I think he weighed a little bit less than Kaz. The pause on the 715 was legitimate (however one of his 700lb benches had a non-existant pause).

I am not disrespecting Kaz at all, as he is an all-time great, but please don’t disrespect those that lift today based on assumptions and stereotypes. Not to mention that 90% of our top guys never lift raw, so we don’t even know what they are capable of, but of the few that do, there are some freaks.

The raw (belt only) deadlift has also gone up…Bolton pulled his original 932 WR in just a belt and a singlet, and I think Frank pulled his 931 the same way, but I could be wrong about that. I imagine Magnusson could do similar weights in just a belt.

No disrespect intended here. There are way more strong guys today. I don’t have a problem with shirts and suits, or with improving form, and I’m sure a big arch 600 pound presser could still do 500+ for reps with a slight arch only. I think its okay to wonder what Kazmaier might have done though. 661 with his style, and totally unequipped, and he didn’t do lockout work (just closegrips), who knows? Nobody imagined an 800 bench at the time. And also, I’ve seen pictures of him at the bottom position of a 900+ pound squat and he is basically doing an olympic style squat.
With equipment, one thing is for sure, we will never see that again.

[/quote]

not true about the shirted bench pressers. i know of more than a few shirted 600lb PLUS benchers that can do litter more than 400-450 RAW.

28

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Pinto wrote:
If raw benching is the measure, then people are getting stronger. 600 lb raw presses are not all that rare today- see ponomarenko, mendelsohn, et al- basically any guy cracking off 800, 900 plus in a shirt is doing 600 raw in the gym, maybe for a few reps. A 600lb single was not seen in a
meet until the late 1950’s.

Yes, but I bet that the range of motion of competition bench presses today is less than half of what it was even in the early 80’s. I also bet that pauses were stricter then.

I have read guys today saying that their bench press stroke is right at 5 inches. Kazmaier benched 661 from the pecs which with his armspan would have to be 24 inches or more right? [/quote]

Excellent observation!

29

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
I don’t have a problem with shirts and suits, or with improving form, and I’m sure a big arch 600 pound presser could still do 500+ for reps with a slight arch only.

ht
not true about the shirted bench pressers. i know of more than a few shirted 600lb PLUS benchers that can do litter more than 400-450 RAW. [/quote]

I know, I was referring to the hypothetical shirted presser who he said could still get 600 raw.

For example, and not out of disrespect, just for the sake of a better understanding: I was told by a first hand reliable source that Mike Miller was benching 805 at a point, and that the most he had done raw within a year had been about 550 for a double. I asked this because the Metal Militia training program supposedly had a raw day where you go to a max raw triple.

30

Hang on, hang on, hang on.

We started off comparing guys from the 20’s who were doing obscure lifts to today’s lifters.

I have certainly never heard of Kaz or Coan testing out how many one armed chin ups they could do. This backs up my statement that to compare strength over time, you should use comparitive lifts.

I also think it is hard to compare strength across different weight classes. The guys from the 20’s were lightweights, and therefore much better suited to doing bodyweight lifts such as one armed chins. That doesn’t make them stronger than Kaz or Coan. It makes them better at one armed chins.

I won’t argue with you about the level of athleticism and flexibility that these guys showed. Their balance and co-ordination was certainly above that of the current gym rat. Once again, not that many people actually train for that sort of thing anymore.

31

[quote]Massif wrote:
Hang on, hang on, hang on.

We started off comparing guys from the 20’s who were doing obscure lifts to today’s lifters.
[/quote]

Good point. Here’s my take on the real early lifts. 1 arm chinups are just a freak thing. Some people happen to have very high brachialis attachments, combined with being relatively light. Again, I’ve seen a kid who is not particularly strong othewise who can do multiple reps on 1-arm chins. His brachialis has an obviously extremely high origin. The one arm “side press” or “bent press” or whatever is a combination of fake or inaccurate weights, and extreme specialization. Most of the guys who claimed around 300 bent press only claimed 350-370 2 arm press, so is largely a leg exercise-in fact its more of a “falling away” from the weight.

32

[quote]Northcott wrote:
The records are still going up, yes, but how many of them are set raw these days? When Eder first crested over 400 lbs in bench press, he hit it at a body weight of 185, and did it on a public beach – no bench shirt, no chalk, nothing fancy about what he did.
[/quote]

Chalk? Why no chalk? I would be really pissed to find out that I using the wrong brand of chalk and there is some magic chalk that helps me lift more. Is lifting without chalk more hard core than using chalk? I thought chalk was used to prevent the bar from slipping and to make a big ass mess… but what do I know?

33

[quote]Northcott wrote:
Massif wrote:
If you are going to compare strength between generations, you would logically use the same exercises. In these lifts, (clean and jerk, bench, squat, etc) the records are still going up.

The records are still going up, yes, but how many of them are set raw these days?
[/quote]

Every single C+J and snatch record is set raw. Every oly squat record is set raw.

Let’s give the old timers their due degree of respect (i.e., a HUGE degree of respect). They were strong at lots of lifts.

But to take just the oly lifts as an example, sheer strength and power have been pushed much farther these days than they were back then. If Arthur Saxon competed in oly lifting today, the state of the sport would push him to the point where he would be warming up with 195 pounds.

34

[quote]Northcott wrote:
Massif wrote:
If you are going to compare strength between generations, you would logically use the same exercises. In these lifts, (clean and jerk, bench, squat, etc) the records are still going up.

The records are still going up, yes, but how many of them are set raw these days? [/quote]

Ummmm, all of the RAW ones are.

PS “RAW” is always spelt with all capital letters, as in “I bench 300lbs RAW”. I don’t know why - it just is.

35

[quote]Massif wrote:
Hang on, hang on, hang on.

We started off comparing guys from the 20’s who were doing obscure lifts to today’s lifters.

I have certainly never heard of Kaz or Coan testing out how many one armed chin ups they could do. This backs up my statement that to compare strength over time, you should use comparitive lifts.

I also think it is hard to compare strength across different weight classes. The guys from the 20’s were lightweights, and therefore much better suited to doing bodyweight lifts such as one armed chins. That doesn’t make them stronger than Kaz or Coan. It makes them better at one armed chins.

I won’t argue with you about the level of athleticism and flexibility that these guys showed. Their balance and co-ordination was certainly above that of the current gym rat. Once again, not that many people actually train for that sort of thing anymore.

[/quote]

Some of these old timers were more like gymnasts. There are plenty of gymnasts that can do lots of one armed chins.

I think we are stronger today than we have been since the start of the industrial age.

The old timers werre great and should be admired but don’t over romanticize them.

36

[quote]Massif wrote:
I also think it is hard to compare strength across different weight classes. The guys from the 20’s were lightweights, and therefore much better suited to doing bodyweight lifts such as one armed chins. That doesn’t make them stronger than Kaz or Coan. It makes them better at one armed chins.
[/quote]

Somewhere in here, either through my miscommunication or people reading into my posts (or my being half-asleep when I posted something off the cuff), the idea seems to have popped up that I’m disrespecting the modern powerhouses. I’m not. I completely agree with what Massif typed above.

What impresses me about the pre-steroid muscle men is that they were multi-purpose (doing bodybuilding, Olympics, strongman displays, etc), and in some cases put up numbers that would be considered damned fine lifts even today. They did this without the current training techniques, the advances in nutritional science, and without the aid of steroids.

The modern greats are, without a doubt, monsterously strong and dedicated athletes. I often wonder, however, what their numbers would be if stripped of gear and “gear”.

[quote]
Massif said:

PS “RAW” is always spelt with all capital letters, as in “I bench 300lbs RAW”. I don’t know why - it just is. [/quote]

Huh. Thanks for the tip. I think I’ll buck the trend, unless it turns out that RAW is an abbreviation for something.

[quote]
Ross Hunt said:

Every single C+J and snatch record is set raw. Every oly squat record is set raw. [/quote]

Good point, and thanks for clearing that up for me. I’m not familiar with the equipment used for the high-level O-lifts – though when I made the post, I was thinking about bench, dl, and squats.

37

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Massif wrote:
Hang on, hang on, hang on.

We started off comparing guys from the 20’s who were doing obscure lifts to today’s lifters.

Good point. Here’s my take on the real early lifts. 1 arm chinups are just a freak thing. Some people happen to have very high brachialis attachments, combined with being relatively light. Again, I’ve seen a kid who is not particularly strong othewise who can do multiple reps on 1-arm chins. His brachialis has an obviously extremely high origin. The one arm “side press” or “bent press” or whatever is a combination of fake or inaccurate weights, and extreme specialization. Most of the guys who claimed around 300 bent press only claimed 350-370 2 arm press, so is largely a leg exercise-in fact its more of a “falling away” from the weight.[/quote]

Have you ever tried a bent press? If you think that shit is largely a leg movement you are friggin’ high. I try to fashion myself after the old strongmen, I do olympic lifting, strongman stuff, powerlifting, grip stuff, and odd object lifting (including people). A bent press is a brutal shoulder movement and tests the flexibility, coordination, and torso. A leg movement it is not. Guys doing a 300lb bent press and being able to “military press” old school style 350lb is believeable. Consider the old military press style, it was another person slowly raising their finger while the lifter had to match the movement with the barbell. go to the gym and try that, then try a bent press, and see how it all goes.

Go on, impress yourself some more.

Sensless

38

[quote]sensless wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
Have you ever tried a bent press? If you think that shit is largely a leg movement you are friggin’ high. I try to fashion myself after the old strongmen, I do olympic lifting, strongman stuff, powerlifting, grip stuff, and odd object lifting (including people). A bent press is a brutal shoulder movement and tests the flexibility, coordination, and torso. A leg movement it is not. Guys doing a 300lb bent press and being able to “military press” old school style 350lb is believeable. Consider the old military press style, it was another person slowly raising their finger while the lifter had to match the movement with the barbell. go to the gym and try that, then try a bent press, and see how it all goes.

Go on, impress yourself some more.

Sensless
[/quote]

I’ve seen video of Paul Anderson doing a 300 pound bent press. I trust that that lift is authentic, I just don’t think that many of these much smaller guys could have matched what he did at 370. And in the video, his shoulder does drop about half the distance that the dumbell rises.

I’ve also read that a lot of old dumbells were not as heavy as had been claimed.

I’ll try a max bent press today. If I die, you are responsible. I’m only saying that its not like a 300 bent press equals a 600 2 arm press or anything-it requires skill and practice.

39

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
sensless wrote:
mertdawg wrote:
Have you ever tried a bent press? If you think that shit is largely a leg movement you are friggin’ high. I try to fashion myself after the old strongmen, I do olympic lifting, strongman stuff, powerlifting, grip stuff, and odd object lifting (including people). A bent press is a brutal shoulder movement and tests the flexibility, coordination, and torso. A leg movement it is not. Guys doing a 300lb bent press and being able to “military press” old school style 350lb is believeable. Consider the old military press style, it was another person slowly raising their finger while the lifter had to match the movement with the barbell. go to the gym and try that, then try a bent press, and see how it all goes.

Go on, impress yourself some more.

Sensless

I’ve seen video of Paul Anderson doing a 300 pound bent press. I trust that that lift is authentic, I just don’t think that many of these much smaller guys could have matched what he did at 370. And in the video, his shoulder does drop about half the distance that the dumbell rises.

I’ve also read that a lot of old dumbells were not as heavy as had been claimed.

I’ll try a max bent press today. If I die, you are responsible. I’m only saying that its not like a 300 bent press equals a 600 2 arm press or anything-it requires skill and practice.[/quote]

Well don’t go dying or anything, but don’t discredit us smaller guys and our shoulder strength. A bent press to me seems closer to a goofy form jerk than a straight up press. The idea is that the weight itself isn’t supposed to move at all, only the lifter’s body moves.

It is pretty tough on the shoulders, I’ve never gone heavier than a pathetic 65lbs on the bent press. The move is very awkward for me and I just started trying it last year. I won’t get more practice with that until this summer, as I pretty much only do strongman stuff in the summer months as an excuse to be outside training.

Good luck,

Sensless

40

We are weaker no doubt. Were in the Big Gulp era! Big everything along with over 500 channels of tv, internet, stupid video games. And I could go on & on.

Back in the day they of course didn’t have all this crap like today. So they had more time, they slept more, prepared their food…cooking good wholesome quality.

Imagine if we didn’t have the net & tv? We would sure spend more time working out, getting stonger. It was simpler back then, and much better IMO with certain things.

Anyone ever hear an old song called, Mad Mad World?? I’d be shocked if I get a response on this one! I heard an old one by Rick(y) Nelson, circa. 1959. But it was even way before his time I’m sure. Great song & has to do with living in a fast paced world.