T Nation

Old Dog - New Tricks

I have been on HRT for over 20 years. Learned alot on this board recently that could have probably improved the quality of my therapy over the past two decades.

I am going to be switching to weekly injections with smaller needles, from two weeks with large needles. I am going to see a new doc and push for Arimdex.

While I have had T and E2 levels, I am asking for my first Free T test now.

Thanks guys for all you post.

I have been on Test Cyp for a year now with no good lab yet. After I found this site I switched my every 2 week injections to EOD and have noticed a BIG improvement with that alone. I feel better all the time now, and better libido. Erections are still a little inconsistent but hoping after my first complete lab tomorrow I will have a lot better idea of what is going on. I am excited it has been a 10 year battle to get to where I am now and finally seeing a light at the end of the tunnel, I hope!

You inject every other day? I think with smaller syringes I can handle to once a week with my T enthate.

I need to read a couple of the threads again to decide what dosage and interval would be good for Arimidex. Assuming I can get the new doctor to prescribe and my insurance to cover.

I recently tried using 31 gauge 5/16" needles to inject testosterone enanthate, and it works. I leave the syringe to load from the vial while I do other things (an idea I picked up from VTBalla), and then I inject without any problems. I inject three times a week, so I like knowing I can successfully use fine needles.

I should note I am leaner than most people I know, so if you want to go with fine needles, make sure they are long enough to penetrate the muscle.

[quote]evitagen wrote:
I recently tried using 31 gauge 5/16" needles to inject testosterone enanthate, and it works. I leave the syringe to load from the vial while I do other things (an idea I picked up from VTBalla), and then I inject without any problems. I inject three times a week, so I like knowing I can successfully use fine needles.

I should note I am leaner than most people I know, so if you want to go with fine needles, make sure they are long enough to penetrate the muscle.[/quote]
SC works just fine.

[quote]RoyBatty wrote:
I have been on HRT for over 20 years. Learned alot on this board recently that could have probably improved the quality of my therapy over the past two decades.

I am going to be switching to weekly injections with smaller needles, from two weeks with large needles. I am going to see a new doc and push for Arimdex.

While I have had T and E2 levels, I am asking for my first Free T test now.

Thanks guys for all you post. [/quote]

You say you have been on HRT for 20 years. If you don’t mind I would Like to ask you a couple questions. How old are you now, and have you had a problem with your testes shrinking, and atrophy?

[quote]cobra003 wrote:

You say you have been on HRT for 20 years. If you don’t mind I would Like to ask you a couple questions. How old are you now, and have you had a problem with your testes shrinking, and atrophy?[/quote]

I am 47, I started on full HRT when I was about 23 after my testicular cancer battle. The last two questions are basically not applicable or of concern to me due to the cancer and complications. Life can be a real bitch sometimes.

[quote]pcdude wrote:

[quote]evitagen wrote:
I recently tried using 31 gauge 5/16" needles to inject testosterone enanthate, and it works. I leave the syringe to load from the vial while I do other things (an idea I picked up from VTBalla), and then I inject without any problems. I inject three times a week, so I like knowing I can successfully use fine needles.

I should note I am leaner than most people I know, so if you want to go with fine needles, make sure they are long enough to penetrate the muscle.[/quote]
SC works just fine.[/quote]

Are there studies or data on the benefit of going EOD over weekly? I have read the downsides to going every 2-3 weeks and have experienced some of the them - so going to weekly will should be a big improvement right?

Over the years I have actually gotten kind of used to using the big needles and syringes - I can draw and shoot quickly with them. Trying to figure out what would be a good needle size for weekly 100mg.

For weekly 100 mg, there is really no reason to go over an insulin pin with a 0.5 mL barrel (assuming your T is 200 mg/mL). One shot from that a week is all it would take. Load time is on the slow side (better with 28 gauge than 30 gauge) but inject times are actually very quick.

I still recommend dosing twice per week.

I don’t know if there are any ‘studies’ but common sense will tell you it keeps your levels steadier. If you do fine on once a week though, then by all means do not feel obligated to change it up.

[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
For weekly 100 mg, there is really no reason to go over an insulin pin with a 0.5 mL barrel (assuming your T is 200 mg/mL). One shot from that a week is all it would take. Load time is on the slow side (better with 28 gauge than 30 gauge) but inject times are actually very quick.

I still recommend dosing twice per week.

I don’t know if there are any ‘studies’ but common sense will tell you it keeps your levels steadier. If you do fine on once a week though, then by all means do not feel obligated to change it up.[/quote]

Thanks. I am moving to once a week and smaller needles. I am dumping my old 21G 3ML 1.5 inch monsters. Then let me see if I can move to twice a week. I was on twice a week (and for a few years 3-4 times a week) for a long time. One good step at a time.

Now I am pushing my doc (or a new doc) to let me try the Arimidex 1mg in small pieces each week. He says there are no studies on this use and has me on 10mg of Tamoxifen twice a day now.

Given my medical conditions and age I see no reason for HCG or other add on’s but I will read more here on this site.

[quote]RoyBatty wrote:

[quote]cobra003 wrote:

You say you have been on HRT for 20 years. If you don’t mind I would Like to ask you a couple questions. How old are you now, and have you had a problem with your testes shrinking, and atrophy?[/quote]

I am 47, I started on full HRT when I was about 23 after my testicular cancer battle. The last two questions are basically not applicable or of concern to me due to the cancer and complications. Life can be a real bitch sometimes.
[/quote]

I hear you. Cancer really sucks! I have several friends that have had different kinds of cancer. It is a terrible thing to see someone go through. I haven’t been trough it myself, but I was diagnosed with hep c 12 years ago and did chemo for 9 months, which did not work, and is probably the reason I’m hear now with hormone problems. I will probably end up with liver cancer from the hep c, unless I die of something else first. Like you said life is a bitch sometimes, and we have to make the best of it. Best to you!

So I asked for another blood test, this one with Free T. It was at an usual time - the end of my current two week cycle.

T 590
E2 30
FT 15 (9-30 normal range)

Now looking at my last midpoint test (1 week into 2 weeks) which is what my doc always looks at

T 680
E2 50
FT not measured

What is interesting is that at the end of my two week cycle I have only gone done 15% from midpoint. I expected larger swings than this. Normal T levels in healthy men who make their own vary as much as this.

The E2 was a much larger swing and put me into a more acceptable T to E ratio then midpoint. Now I will say I am now taking DIM and tamoxifen, but the tamoxifen would not alter E2 levels only how it is (or is not) absorbed by parts of me.

I am injecting 200mg every two weeks IM.

Thoughts anyone?

Reread the protocol for injections sticky.

Twice a week would be good for you, take 1/2 mg anastrozole at that time. With that you will get a rise and fall of both T and anastrozole levels that will be roughly in balance.

If T levels are steady, twice a week is not, then anastrozole should be dosed EOD because of its half life.

hCG half life dictates EOD. For those you use hCG, injecting T, injecting hCG and taking anastrozole all at the same time makes sense.

Injecting once a week creates large changes in T levels. Anastrozole levels cannot be maintained in a proper balance to T levels. Most who switch to twice a week or EOD prefer that.

When you inject once a week, lab results are greatly determined by lab timing.

Tamoxifen/nolvadex does not reduce E2, typically it will increase E2. As it is a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, not all tissues will be shielded from E2.

Anastrozole reduces T–>E2 aromatization. Men have aromatase, and low dose anastrozole does modulate E2 in men. Stick that in his face.

thanks so much. I did read the sticky and I think…I got it…maybe not… I am learning.

hCG primary benefit is how it works and interacts with testicular functioning?

I know armidex is the drug to get instead of Tamodifen. Doctor is being resistant. I am looking elsewhere. My primary concern with HRT is control of E2… and its negative issues = gynecomastia occurrence, secondary would be bloating and weight gain from excessive E2. Lastly would be mood control and well being. I have no libido or ED issues in over 20 years of HRT.

On the cycle timing. Labs can vary - but my T seems steady in a two week cycle. That is - it does not appear to drop more than 15% over the last week of a two week cycle. I am moving to weekly now as a first step. Will consider bi-weekly later. I am just kind of surprised that my (injected) testosterone level holds reasonably steady over two weeks. I had expected to see it drop 50% or more in the last week of a two week cycle. Instead at 590 - not bad. But that E2 is swinging.

Additional thought after reading more of the posts by you KSman. I think the issue of time between injections (2 weeks, 1 week, bi weekly, EOD) may not be huge swings in T levels for me - but the affect E2 levels I am seeing.

Reduced cycle time and armidex are what I will seek.

Thanks again.

Updates

I have switched to once a week 100mg (1/2 cc) injections from two 200mg weeks.

I found a second doctor willing to give me armidex. He tried to tell me 1mg every day. I started with .5mg half a day - and I experience a huge ramp up in depression and my joints ached. My normal estridol was below standard readings.

I switched to .25mg (tough to cut those little 1mg pills) twice a week - once at injection time and then midweek.

Recent tests (mid week/cycle)

T = 679 (398-1197)
FT = 21 (6.8 -21.5)
E = 8 (3-70 sensitive essay)

I have had no changes in morning wood or sex drive at any time over my 20 years in TRT. Recently on the new once week cycle and .25 mg armidex I have noticed increase strength levels and endurance… and some minor increase in aggression.

I believe from what I have read here I maybe an over responder to arimidex. It is also possible that my previous elevated E levels (30-50) have gone down as part of my change from two week to one week T injections.

Thoughts?

Arimidex/anastrozole: Initial dose should be a total of 1mg/week. You were taking 3.5mg/week. With E2=8 you should feel like crap.

Thanks for the response KSman.

Well T and FT are really nice levels for a 47 year old guy. The FT in particular is very nice.

My biggest complaint of my old TRT was ongoing issues with gynecomastia and some weight issues - which points to E2 issues

I am thinking frankly, of taking only .25mg per week Arimidex or none. I am taking .5mg now and my E2 is freaking 8. I think I am an over responder to Arimidex.

I had been on 200mg Test Enth twice a week (not good protocol), no arimidex and my E2 was anywhere from 39-50. So E2 was too high.

I moved to once a week 100mg (1/2cc) Test enth and then began adding arimidex to equation and my E2 has dropped too much now.

The ideal E2 of 20 something is eluding my efforts. This may lead me to stopping arimidex, taking blood tests and seeing where E2 is again. then if needed go to twice a week (sticky recommendation) if E2 is too high again.

You need to stop Arimidex for 5-6 days then resume at lower dose. It takes that long for the levels to drop. If you were taking 3.5mg/week, I would quit for 7 days.

How much Arimidex were you taking a week?

You can’t take Arimidex once a week because the half-life is not suitable for that. If you inject T twice a week, you can take Arimidex at the time of injection.

For over responders, splitting pills dose not work. Some will make a solution with vodka and dispense by the drop. Others get research chemicals made up at 1mg/ml.

When I first went on Arimidex it was .5mg EOD. Alog with my new once a week cycle. Thats when I had horrible joint pain and depression. E2 was below standard range (i read here later about sensitive test).

I stopped armidex for a week or two and joint pain and severe depression resolved itself.

I resumed armidex this time taking only .25mg on Sunnday and Wednesday. I inject 100mg on sundays of testosterone enthate.

Yes I was thinking about the solutions - I need to find a compounding pharmacy for that - right? Perhaps I need very tiny amounts as you mention. It has proved to be powerful stuff for me.