OK! OK! You Convinced Me!!

All of you by now have heard about my oral only cycles of drol and winnie… resulting in… well… not much.

The problem has been that I’m scared to death of needles. It’s been a phobia all my life. But I’ve been trying desperatly to convince myself… to be a fucking MAN for chrissakes!

And, today, I was reading how most people will use very small 25g 0.5" needles to inject into the delts. “That’s pretty tiny”, I thought, “I can do that… and if I can’t I really AM a wuss.” I always figured you needed some 2" sucker to plug yourself in the ass with. But, a tiny thing like that? I think I can do it.


After reading through Furious George’s sticky called “Steroid newbie cycle planning” I’m going to do the following around mid-January:

W 1-10 Test Enth 250mg E3D
W 1-4 Dbol 10mg 3x/d
W 1-12 Adex 0.25mg EOD
W 6-12 Proviron 25mg 2x/d
W 1-12 Nolva 20mg/d if gyno symptoms start to show
W 13 Nolva 20mg 2x/d
W 14-16 Nolva 20mg/d

I want to wait until mid January because:

  1. I just did a 6 week anadrol/winnie oral cycle and need to take a good 8 weeks to allow my body to fully recover before doing anything else

  2. I have a tendinitis in my shoulder which is healing albeit very slowly resulting in me barely being able to train shoulders at all. I hoping that it will be fully healed by then.

Questions I have:

  1. I’m obviously going to read a ton before jabbing myself with a pin but are there any issues in always using the delts or side of the arm as an injection site or will I eventually have to use glutes or other areas? I say this because I’ll need to keep the needle size as tiny as possible to be able to get through it.

  2. Do you order needles online or do you buy them at your local pharmacy?

  3. What would be an expected worst case scenario amount of gains from such a cycle (initial gains and kept gains) for someone with ‘ok’ training and ‘ok’ diet (knowing that great training and decent diet will provide far better results)?

  4. Any pros/cons from doing 12 weeks of test instead of 10? Is it only a matter of determining if the sides you encounter at the 10 week mark (if any) merit enough attention that it would be wiser to stop the cycle there instead of continuing on?

Please chime in if you feel I’m missing anything.

As for number two,

seeing you’re in QC, many shoppers drug marts are able to order syringes and needles for you. You just call around and find out which ones can make the order. Just be normal when ordering and picking them up… don’t worry, they’re not going to do anything to you.

If you can’t find a shoppers drug mart that sells pins, call small-time old school pharmacies, they usually carry different supplies of pharmaceuticals (vials, pins, filters ect)

and i think you’re over-reacting about being scared to inject yourself (like everyone else). There’s nothing to it. Just jab, aspirate and inject. Once you’re done, you’ll be saying “wow, all that drama for this?”

good luck!

a 12 wk cycle will obv allow for more gains than a 10 wk cycle, just as an 8 wk cycle would limit gains compared to a 10. The other main difference is recovery. you might wanna consider running the adex slightly ahead of the start of dbol so it can build up in your system.

Your cycle looks pretty good im planning on doing a similar cycle this summer. Don’t worry too much about having to inject in other area’s besides your delt. It goes smooth as butter no matter what and if you can inject the delt you will have no prob pinning elsewhere.

The side of the ass is no big deal it feels like a small pinch and after you pin there you will probably prefer to do that. Hows your diet looking for the cycle?

I second that! Once you go glute, you never want to go elsewhere.

Glutes are my least favorite injection site. I can’t stand twisting around to do the injection. Glute injections also cause me to move the needle around more than anywhere else which causes unnecessary bruising.

Ventroglute is by far the easiest.

Quads are my favorite to do, except when using Prop.

Ideally you’d like to use as many sites as possible to minimize scar tissue, but if only doing 2 injections per week, four sites would probably work out ok.

I inject with 25g 1" in all locations. My bodyfat is not much higher than it is in my avatar though.

You probably should have left out question number 3.

Bro the ass is the easiest.

Its hard to miss, and it doesn’t hurt much if any.

If you really do have a needles problem have a buddy do your first few injections till you get used to it and can do it yourself.

Or atleast have your buddy in the next room in case you pass out.

Question 3 probably should have been worded a bit differently. I’m 5’11", 185lbs, 14% bodyfat. I eat 5 to 6 meals spread throughout the day and I try to have protein at each meal. I currently keep my caloric intake around 3000 per day as anything higher makes me put on fat (I was 19% bf earlier this year). I know I’ll probably be able to up my calories to 3500 or so when on cycle without having to worry about bodyfat. Would a 10 pound lean mass increase of kept gains be a normal expected result from such a cycle (or is this a taboo question as well)?

That is a reasonable, moderate net gain IME.

For a cycle such as yours is is not uncommon to gain 20lbs and keep 10-15lbs long term. That is a good run IMHO.

After a recent flame by some twat on another thread recently it made me think about my progress over the years - personal issues aside… and if it is good, bad or ok.

So… with intermittent use of deca primarily (1-2 6wk cycles every other year on average) for around 2 of the 6 serious years… and test only being used for the last year… and the rest of the time off gear… I have gone from 140lbs at 22 (i was about 125-130lbs when i first picked up a barbell) to 200lbs at 28.

I would say that this is with serious hardcore drug issues throughout… and it isnt that bad going.
I am also lucky to look like i hold much more muscle than i do. Due to insertions, bellies, and skeletal structure… (slim).

So a gain of 10lbs PER CYCLE, would be great if one did 2 cycles a year.
Although it simply doesnt happen like this… diminishing returns and all that.

Basically - aim to gain 20 and keep 15 at your level of experience.

I personally am not totally smitten with test as many are here - i dont like the fat that comes, withe Deca one can eat dirty and gain lean!

I will be doing a deca, mast cycle at some point methinky! /tangent!


Thanks Brook. Somebody flamed YOU?? Let me at 'em… let me at 'em!!! ;o)

I had understood that deca can really shut you down. I got totally shut down while experimenting with 150mg drol and 100mg winnie after a very short period of time so I can only imagine how deca would affect me. I’m heading towards unchartered waters with these compounds so I have no idea what to expect. Of course, I realize that anything can shut you down though I heard that this is especially common with deca (hence the term deca dick). I’m Italian, so if my dick doesn’t work I must hang my head in shame :oP

Every pharmacy (Pharmaprix, Jean Coutu) have pins. Probably good to get some 1/2 inch for delts and 1 inch for everywhere else. It is a good idea to go for the smallest barrell that will accomodate your intended dose. That way you will have more control to aspirate and inject. 1 or 2 ml barrell is ideal. 3ml are more widely available as are the longer pins.

25G is definitely teh way to go. You probably want to get 21G to draw. Always change the needle after drawing and put on a new 25G before injecting to minimize dulling and subsequent pin entry pain. Always draw back the plunger after filling your barrell before removing the 21G so as not to waste what’s in the needle. Then put on the new 25G and squeeze the plunger until all visable air is gone and a few drips of oil have come out the end of the pin.

Now you are good to go. Also, it never hurts to heat up the vial in hot tap water before drawing. I actually drop the loaded and capped syringe into a glass of hot tap water for a couple of minutes and then dry it off with tissue before uncapping and pinning. You should ask for a free hazerdous waste container at your pharmacy to deposit used syringes.

I personally find delts and glutes challenging as you can only use one arm at those sites (maybe two at glutes but you are all twisted). I like Ventrogluteal the best, Quads second, and delts too. I second what was said about prop in quads. That can be painful 6+ hours after.

Thanks Dynamo,

I found this helpful link should any newbies want more information about syringes and injecting:


One question I did have: How many times can you reuse the same barrel, if at all?

I don’t think you need to use novla in weeks 1-12 if you experience gyno symptoms. Just up the A-dex.

I really think you could up your kcal to at least 4000 when on. I am of similar build to you and my body responds well to 4500-5000 cal when on PH’s (I haven’t been able to run test yet due to a legal situation). So I could imagine you’d be safe with at least 4k.

Also, have you thought about a test taper???

Yes, I had thought about a test taper until Bill Roberts chimed him saying he doesn’t believe in them (in another thread). I have to do more research on it but I definitely haven’t ruled it out.

Wow thats news to me… I’m gonna look more into that. This forum introduced me to the taper.

Here is a link to the thread that Bill mentioned this:


Again, for the newbies, here is a great article by John M Berardi that calculates what you should be taking in calorie wise:


According to my calculations, I should be eating 4000 calories a day if I want to put on muscle. So, at 3000 (currently) I’m a far cry from where I need to be. I used to put on fat easily when I upped it much over 3000. Then again, it could be that the change was too drastic and that I should have upped it slowly over a period of time. I’m going to give that a try.

If I recall correctly, Bill Roberts said that tapering at above 100mg/w can prolong the time you are shut down. If you follow the procedures of the test taper it calls for a 4 week stasis after the end of your cycle. The stasis is dosed at 100mg/w which will allow your body to start it’s own natural production. Then the actual taper begins and the doses are even lower. 80/60/50/40/30/20 mg per respective week. Those tiny dosages can be shot with an insulin syringe since you would have to dose test e at 10mg twice a week on the last week.

For test e 250mg/ml that is 1/25th of a ml per shot!! 0.25ml fills a 0.5cc insulin pin 1/2 way. With that small a dose you can equally shoot subcutaneous as intra muscular. The insulin pins being tiny subcutaneous is probably the way to go. Your other option is getting a tiny barrell (if they exist) and continue to use 25G pins. At that dosage however, the insulin pins cause less waste since the pins are 29G and they are shorter so less stays in the syringe and pin.

As I said, if I remember correctly Bill Roberts was referrring to someone who was going to cut his dosage to 200mg/w nearing the end of his cycle. Bill explained to him that at that dosage the guy wouldn’t receive much benefit yet he would be prolonging the time he is shut down.

As for reusing barrells. Always use new ones. They are not very expensive. One infection or similar problem can put you on the sidelines for a considerable amount of time.

Thanks for the link on injections. Very informative.

You can probably safely go higer than John Berardi’s caloric suggestions when on cycle.

wait… 1/25 of a ml is .025 not .25… right?

I guess I should read through the whole thread since I only read up to the part where he said he doesn’t believe in them ;o)

How do you guys feel about weight gainer type shakes to help achieve your caloric goals? Maltodextrose… friend or foe? I mean, eating 4000 to 5000 calories a day is a full time job in itself. I spend most of my days on the road seeing clients (I’m an IT consultant) so every day is different and there is no routing to plan for. I eat when I get to eat. Bringing a shake along makes for a very quick meal and is very convenient as well. Thoughts? I know I’m straying from the original reason for the thread… (but it’s MY damn thread!) :stuck_out_tongue: